It’s a ridiculous hypothetical. I answered it, pretending it wasn’t absurd… but occasionally people do absurd things. And I never demanded that “the whole world” take anyone’s word for anything.
First, the authorities attempt mediation, and see if either one volunteers. Given the number of students who study off tapes, there’s a decent chance one will. If that doesn’t work, the accused goes to the other room. The odds are higher that he’s lying than that the accuser is. And the remedy isn’t so horrific that it’s worth doing something more complicated.
What odds do you base this on? This is assuming that any sort of punishment should be based upon odds.
Further, if we assume that whatever biased and feminist study that you cite for me about these odds are true, then what’s to stop these odds from changing once unprincipled accusers find out about the new policy that gets unwanted people kicked out of their class and then skews the odds the other way?
If I were so principled as my ideals, or so ideal as my principles, I would resign effective immediately upon receiving the complaint. Why? Because (6) I am president of a school that has no policies in place to handle rape accusations. That kind of obliviousness is a major, major problem which is best solved with a change in leadership. I would also make this very clear and public in my letter/speech of resignation.
The hypothetical is flawed, but it’s salvageable. I can still answer and debate the core question, “what should the policy be in this hypothetical rape accusation?”
Next, as iiandyiiii astutely observes, none of the facts given in the case are known to me (the president) at the moment the accusation first reaches my ears. The first step is to depose the accuser. It doesn’t really matter who the witness talks to as long as it is a single point of contact made clear by existing policy. It could be me, the president, or it could be a designated person from the campus police. Either I take the deposition or I refer her to a designated interviewer.
The victim then attends an appointment with the interviewer, to hear her story. I am not sure whether or not the victim should be advised that the university retains the right to take anything they say to municipal authorities, or even whether the university should retain that right. I will defer to people more experienced with psychology and criminal/law enforcement subjects; as I think there may be a chilling effect at play. Nevertheless the victim must have the right to unilaterally go to municipal authorities at all times.
Due to the chilling effect that I assume would exist, I would not have the school take all accusations straight to the municipal police (where DrDeth would do so).
Even if the municipal police were involved, I would still want a campus investigation for reasons given by Oredigger77, to the extent possible without obstructing the municipal police. The District Attorney may not bring the case to court, whereas presumably school policy is more strict than the law in some relevant way; the accused may have definitely* violated school policy without definitely* breaking the law.
- Here I mean beyond a reasonable doubt, because that is the standard I would use in both disciplinary proceedings and criminal proceedings. It is not unheard of for schools to use a lesser standard.
I am not sure whether to start an investigation if the victim expressly asks us not to investigate. Maybe someone here could convince me on that question. I am definitely against taking disciplinary action if I have nothing to go on but the accuser’s word. She may want to avoid the court’s hassles, but she still has to put up with the university’s hassles if she wants the university to hand down a punishment.
If the investigation does take place, and as stated in the hypothetical no evidence or facts appear to tip the scales in favor of the victim or the accused, I default to not guilty. Deep down, I think it is better that a number of guilty people go free than an innocent person be punished. Even slightly punished. This is because I think I have more control over actually being guilty than I do over being accused, and also because of how I view the nature of morality. I’m not sure how many people it would take for me to abandon the presumption of innocence, but I think that’s a separate debate unto itself.
~Max, back from vacation
I will point out it’s pretty rare for a competent investigation to produce no evidence. In most cases, the investigators are going to find evidence that either corroborates the initial accusation or contradicts it. This is true even in cases where the primary evidence is testimony.
Stealing $1000 is a relatively minor offense when compared to rape. A better comparison would need to be made with a more severe crime like attempted murder, domestic violence, assault, etc. But even minor monetary crimes will be investigated from just the accusation. If someone left a voicemail at campus security that said “When Dave works the box office, he steals cash.”, that accusation would be investigated.
There are many cases I could imagine where someone would not want to be part of the investigation, but would want it to be reported. For example:
“When we visited your campus as part of our college tour, Dave Smith raped my child. I don’t want to put my child through any more trauma and will not be part of any investigation. I am recording this complaint in case I need proof of it at a later date.”
I’m fairly certain there would be an investigation with something like that. It’s going to be hard to gather evidence and nothing conclusive may be found, but the investigation should be done if for no other reason than to prove they investigated it as much as reasonably possible.
Repeat post below finished.
I didn’t see your earlier post. I don’t think I disagree with anything you said in that.
Unfortunately, the reality is that in order to conduct any effective investigation, the accuser is going to have to participate. And the defense is going to do their best to attack the accuser’s credibility.
Do you have ANY basis for that assertion?
I’m pretty amazed by how much is being said in this thread that is just people saying shit.
The op is NOT an absurd hypothetical. There are many cases in which an alleged victim does not want to go to the police (due to the likely negative impact on them, inclusive of revictimization, and the knowledge that the it will be his word her word as to consent). And many more in which the evidence is not close enough to the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard that a decision to prosecute is based upon.
Colleges are NOT required to report their being told of the alleged incident to the police and an alleged victim is NOT required to report to the police. Colleges are however obligated to adjudicate the case and they are not held to a “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard. The issue of what standard they should be held under is not something they make up on their own on the fly.
Yes UltraVires the different standards are based on the odds: beyond reasonable shadow of doubt; highly probable; or more likely than not. Even under Devos colleges are not at the legal standard of … the odds. And have more freedom to decide what response is appropriate if that standard is met.
[QUOTE=DSeid;22053630…
The op is NOT an absurd hypothetical. There are many cases in which an alleged victim does not want to go to the police (due to the likely negative impact on them, inclusive of revictimization, and the knowledge that the it will be his word her word as to consent). And many more in which the evidence is not close enough to the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard that a decision to prosecute is based upon.
Colleges are NOT required to report their being told of the alleged incident to the police and an alleged victim is NOT required to report to the police. Colleges are however obligated to adjudicate the case and they are not held to a “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard. …[/QUOTE]
If reported in time, there is almost always some evidence.
And that is under Federal law. State laws vary.
I don’t see “separate them” as punishment.
Have you ever wanted to get someone kicked out of a class? Why? Did they do something horrible to you or something? Uh… right. Seriously, what is the motive to want someone removed from your class? If they didn’t do something horrible to you, and they just smell bad or something, can’t you sit away from them? And you know, if one girl complains about multiple boys, that’s evidence right there. I think you are worrying about problems that don’t happen.
Actually, they do. I knew a guy who had to leave his job as an assistant professor because a student made an accusation against him that was much less serious than rape. And everyone knew the accusation was false. The administrator who explained that the college had found him a new job elsewhere told him that they knew it was false, but both the guy and the school would be seriously hurt if she sued. And as best as i could tell, her motive was that she was crazy.
So… We already have these Draconian rules. And how many boys get thrown out of their classes? Right. It’s not a real problem. I mean, no doubt there’s somebody somewhere who has been injured, like the guy I knew. But we live in an imperfect world. It’s not a serious problem. In particular, it’s a much less serious problem than the incidence of rape on campuses.
The scenario that a student would want the university but not the police to act on a complaint of sexual assault really IS an absurd hypothetical because only about a fourth of campus sexual assault cases are reported to anyone. The fears of reporting are not only that reporting won’t result in consequences but that the assailant will try to exact revenge, that he (or, I suppose, she) will encourage friends to get revenge for the reports, and that the university won’t be able to keep the victim safe. If the assailant is a popular athlete, multiply those dangers by ten.* None of those factors disappear if the assault is reported to the university but not the police.
*
And why is there the assumption that a victim would expect the university to expel the accused? Please show me data confirming that this happens frequently and without the victim filing a police report.
The deficits in the proposal to automatically “separate” students when one is accused have nothing to do with the deficits in the OP.
Your broad answer will harm real people in real classes. Maybe you didn’t think it through. Maybe you don’t care. But your “best practice” will harm people. “Broad theoretical question” is no excuse here. No additional information required other than knowing how real schools work.
This delays graduation a year. Thus, harm.
Lab times can be moved; that’s why I didn’t pick a lab. This class isn’t recorded. Even if it were, this isn’t some state school monster lecture hall; it’s an interactive class. And even if it were a uniderectional lecture, there are reasons people pay more for in-person over remote classes. And even if those were equivalent, this chemistry program involves a relatively strict sequence of classes. So we’re not talking about just one class being disrupted.
You bet there are other options. Maybe there aren’t. Maybe this actually is the best one. But we should understand the actual costs instead of dismissing them or, as others have done, blaming them on the OP.
If you have data on how common it is to automatically remove an accused from class with an accuser with no evidence beyond the accusation, let’s see them.
If you think a jury of your “peers” is terrifying, you’ll love a jury of the SDMB “statisticians”!
On that note (responding to the above string of quotes), I’m not super enthusiastic about the idea that “accusation made” should mean “the accused is the one to be pulled out of class” is an appropriate response. There is no perfect solution, but the best way to balance the rights of the accused with the well-being of the accuser IMHO would be to inform the accuser of their rights (as a victim) and inform them that, among other things, they may elect to be removed from any classes they share with the accused if they so choose. If that means arranging for a class of one at a time of convenience to the accuser due to limited course offerings, then so be it.
But I don’t think an accusation alone should be treated as some sort of “accused ejection button.”
There is an account in the story below that I found very disturbing. What disturbed me was the VICTIM’S account of the “assault” itself, which has all the hallmarks of regret and contains absolutely nothing that I would reasonably see as an assault. And ultimately, the school and authorities agreed.
But the accused still suffered great harm and was punished anyway. One of the things he was punished for was allegedly sending his victim a Facebook friend request. He offered investigators access to his account so he could prove he didn’t send the request. They weren’t interested. I mean, no one has EVER gotten a friend request that was spoofed, amirite?
“A 2015 study by the education insurance group United Educators, examining 305 claims of assault at 104 schools, found that about 40% of students delay reporting an assault ( there are many valid reasons one might do so, including fear of stigma). The average delay was 11 months and “ in most cases, the victim labeled the incident a sexual assault only after talking with friends or attending prevention training.” This is a quote from the story linked below, which calls out junk science, (similar to the “recovered memories” of the 1980’s), which claims inconsistencies and untruths in the victim account’s should serve as evidence that an assault did occur.
Caroline Quillen, President of Davidson College, wrote in an op-ed “that while criminal justice is founded on due process and the possibility of innocence”, ideals she valued, these goals were inherently in conflict with other important goals. Nothing about due process says to a rape survivor “I believe you”.
I do not want to disenfranchise victims of sexual assault. But one way of doing that is to broaden the definition of sexual assault to the point where it’s almost meaningless.
Some of the policies are incredibly infantilizing towards women and assume that the default position is “women don’t want sex and men do”. And they assume that women that are assaulted are so traumatized that it’s unfair to expect to have a coherent thought or consistent stories. Because we are weak, helpless and fall apart so easily. College men must rise to role of protectors and understand that although we might lose all control and drop our panties if a drop of alcohol touches our lips, it is their responsibility to be the grownup and protect us from ourselves.
I was a female in the very first class of my college that did NOT impose a curfew on females. We still has restrictions that men didn’t, our dorms locked down at midnight and we had to have security open up for us if we came in later- and if we were intoxicated we’d get into trouble. I fought for the right to be treated as a responsible adult, and I’m not crazy about these new policies.
If I go out with a guy and we share a couple of glasses of wine and he’s sweet and charming so I go to bed with him, that isn’t rape. Even if I feel “uncomfortable” about it the next day and don’t want to see him again. Even if I like him but he ignores me and treats me like garbage he’s discarded.
Yes, stuff like this happened to me in college. And it was uncomfortable. And ultimately, those situations were learning experiences that taught me to make better decisions.
There are lots of situations in life that are inherently uncomfortable. Making someone uncomfortable is not a crime. As an employer, I often had to have uncomfortable conversations with employees. Comfort is not a human right and learning to handle discomfort is a valuable skill.
These links were from a three part series in The Atlantic. The third installment dealt with race issues in campus assault. If anyone is interested the link is here.
So then throw the accuser out of class. What? It’s not a punishment.
I don’t believe university administrators are law enforcement. The police and judicial system are. Why not have the alleged victim take the complaint to the police?