# How would you prove you're a citizen? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 19, 2024, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450 "2024-09-19T01:46:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/41 "2024-09-19T14:51:59Z")
Also, the point of all of these ID rules is to exclude some folks from being able to prove they can vote. A free national ID would undermine that clear goal. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/42 "2024-09-19T14:52:43Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > A part of the genius of America, I guess. To be fair, we don’t have a national ID card in Canada either. Our system is virtually identical to yours with passports and citizenship certificates for naturalized people issued federally, birth certificates and driver’s licenses are issued provincially. We are required to provide ID to vote, but do not need to prove citizenship. Registering to vote requires an affirmation that you are eligible. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/43 "2024-09-19T14:53:47Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > All the government knows is that I’m a person who has been going by that name for a while. There is _no proof whatsoever_ that I am actually the person Which is a weird scenario that we got into during the 2nd half of the 20th century. Strictly, the DL was only supposed to show that the holder was qualified to drive a motor vehicle. At some point, photos were added so you could not easily “borrow” someone else’s license. But that was it: it just meant the person with that face was the person who took that driving test under that name. But because _most_ Americans had one, everyone and his brother started treating it as a de-facto ID document so at least they had a face and an address to put together with the name if the check was bad. And then it began being _officially_ treated as ID in public agencies. And here we are now. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/44 "2024-09-19T15:23:47Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Since the thread is in FQ (though it doesn’t seem to belong here), the factual answer might be on [this page](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-apply/citizenship-evidence.html), which lists the various ways one can provide evidence of US citizenship when applying for a passport. Aside from the obvious (birth certificate, certificate of naturalization, previous passport), one can provide a baptism certificate, US Census record or even a family Bible. How does a baptism certificate or family bible affirm citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/45 "2024-09-19T15:30:56Z")
Presumably they would show someone was born with your name when you were born. I imagine that someone born someplace rural years ago might have been born at home with no government issued birth certificate and paperwork like that (or even just a sworn statement from someone who remembers when you were born) might be all you can provide. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/46 "2024-09-19T15:32:32Z")
Birth Certificate ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/47 "2024-09-19T15:51:40Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Presumably they would show someone was born with your name when you were born. > > I imagine that someone born someplace rural years ago might have been born at home with no government issued birth certificate and paperwork like that (or even just a sworn statement from someone who remembers when you were born) might be all you can provide. I see now from your link that baptism records and family bible records are considered secondary evidence (to be used only if primary evidence is not available), and to be acceptable, they _should_ include full name and date/place of birth. “Should” is a surprising word there. If one of these documents doesn’t have some of that info, I wonder how they decide whether it’s acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/48 "2024-09-19T15:53:46Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > There’s also, I think, some irrational fear about the “number of the beast” that makes some fearful of a national ID card or national ID number. There used to be an entirely non-religiously-based argument that it was only totalitarian states that made people carry ID around and show it to the police on demand; in the good old USA where we value Freedom™ we don’t require showing documentation! Funny how I haven’t heard that one in a while. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I imagine that someone born someplace rural years ago might have been born at home with no government issued birth certificate and paperwork like that (or even just a sworn statement from someone who remembers when you were born) might be all you can provide. Yup. And in addition, some people’s certificates were destroyed at the courthouses or whatever where they were officially on file by fire/flood/etc. catastrophe. Some of them didn’t have a copy themselves when that happened, or lost it in the same catastrophe. (And they might have lost the family Bible, or not have had one in the first place, or not kept records in it if they did.) There are certainly US citizens who can’t provide a birth certificate. And without one, I’m pretty sure you can’t get any of the other proofs of citizenship either. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/49 "2024-09-19T16:56:49Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > Registering to vote requires an affirmation that you are eligible. What do you mean by “affirmation”? The person just declares they are eligible? * * * Since we’re now in IMHO, statements like the following are permissible: > [@RitterSport](#): > > Also, the point of all of these ID rules is to exclude some folks from being able to prove they can vote. This is definitely a feature, not a bug. * * * > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > There are certainly US citizens who can’t provide a birth certificate. My father was born in a small town in deep East Texas and couldn’t provide a birth certificate to join the Navy in World War II. He had to get letters from people in town to testify to his birthplace and year. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/50 "2024-09-19T18:27:43Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > What do you mean by “affirmation”? The person just declares they are eligible? Yes, it’s just a declaration that you are eligible. You need to have ID or you can have another registered voter vouch for you. We use a permanent voter list at the federal level that is shared with the province or territory you live in. Deaths reported to Service Canada are removed from the list. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/51 "2024-09-19T20:46:16Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In a nation like the United States where citizenship can be obtained merely by being born in the USA itself, a birth certificate would indeed be all the proof needed (in theory.) i.e., if you were born in Cincinnati and can prove it, that is all the proof. So I produce a birth certificate. How can I prove it is **my** birth certificate. BTW, it has a different than the name I use and have used for all my conscious life. You wanna know why? My father was looking for a job during the last years of the depression and decided it would be easier in his USA if his name didn’t immediately mark him as a Jew. That’s why. I do have a valid US passport under the name I use. Getting that the first time wasn’t trivial, but I don’t think it would have that hard to fake it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/52 "2024-09-19T20:57:16Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > The purpose of the RealID system was never to prove citizenship, it was just to reliably prove that you are who you claim to be. Nope. It was 100% a racist idea. It was a reaction as CA and other states would give drivers license to undocumented aliens. It was pushed as a security idea for flying, but since you can fly on ANY passport, it isnt. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > There’s also, I think, some irrational fear about the “number of the beast” that makes some fearful of a national ID card or national ID number. Not irrational. In many nations there is the “papers please” and Americans dont want that. > [@RitterSport](#): > > Also, the point of all of these ID rules is to exclude some folks from being able to prove they can vote. A free national ID would undermine that clear goal. Yes to the first, but no to the send, as how do you qualify for that national ID? By a birth cert, right? Which some elderly and minorities- like Native Americans- do not have easy access to. > [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > “Should” is a surprising word there. If one of these documents doesn’t have some of that info, I wonder how they decide whether it’s acceptable. It is very simple- are you white and thus more likely to vote Red? It is acceptable. Are you a minority- it is not acceptable. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > There used to be an entirely non-religiously-based argument that it was only totalitarian states that made people carry ID around and show it to the police on demand; in the good old USA where we value Freedom™ we don’t require showing documentation! Yep, and that is still valid. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And in addition, some people’s certificates were destroyed at the courthouses or whatever where they were officially on file by fire/flood/etc. catastrophe. Some of them didn’t have a copy themselves when that happened, or lost it in the same catastrophe. (And they might have lost the family Bible, or not have had one in the first place, or not kept records in it if they did.) > > There are certainly US citizens who can’t provide a birth certificate. And without one, I’m pretty sure you can’t get any of the other proofs of citizenship either. Right. And the expense is not insignificant to some. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/53 "2024-09-19T21:03:42Z")
What good is an original birth certificate to prove who you are if you got married and changed your name? Or changed your name (legally) without getting married? Then you would have to show more docs than just a birth cert such as a marriage license or a name change doc from a court. Think of those unfortunate souls who got married, divorced, and remarried (to different spouses). Gathering their necessary paperwork just to vote would be a nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/54 "2024-09-19T21:32:47Z")
Yup, that’s why I also have a notarized copy of my change of name tucked in with my birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/55 "2024-09-19T21:37:58Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > What good is an original birth certificate to prove who you are if you got married and changed your name? Or changed your name (legally) without getting married? Then you would have to show more docs than just a birth cert such as a marriage license or a name change doc from a court. You usually do have to show at least one more document anyway, because a birth certificate has no picture (not that one would be much good if it did.) But yes, if you’ve changed your name you need extra documents. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/56 "2024-09-19T22:00:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > There’s also, I think, some irrational fear about the “number of the beast” that makes some fearful of a national ID card or national ID number. > > Not irrational. In many nations there is the “papers please” and Americans dont want that. I thought there were court rulings that you have to present ID to a police officer when asked to do so. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/57 "2024-09-19T22:48:33Z")
No , you have to identify yourself under certain circumstances - but that only means you must give your name and address. You don’t have to show identification paperwork because there isn’t any requirement that you have identification paperwork. That said, there are certain situations where the police will treat you differently based on whether you have ID. For example , in NYC there are a number of offenses for which you _can_ be given a ticket but you won’t get a ticket until they have identified you, either by state issued ID or through fingerprints and people often understand that as being arrested for not having ID when in fact they were arrested for not paying the subway fare or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/58 "2024-09-19T23:23:14Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > You don’t have to show identification paperwork because there isn’t any requirement that you have identification paperwork. And there seems to be a belief that having a universal proof of citizenship/identity document _issued_ must mean this is to be _required to produce_ on demand. The law could just as well say a citizen would be issued that document and then be free to keep it in a kitchen drawer and only bring it out when needed for a specific transaction, like we do with the birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/59 "2024-09-19T23:27:38Z")
If the day comes when we are required by law to carry proof of identity around on our persons all day and produce the document(s) when asked by police, we will be most of the way to an authoritarian state. I hope that’s an “if” not a “when.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/60 "2024-09-19T23:32:35Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I thought there were court rulings that you have to present ID to a police officer when asked to do so. You have to tell them your name, and maybe address, if they have a reason to ask. Each state has different rules. Now, if you are driving a vehicle on a public highway, yeah, you gotta show them your drivers license. > [@doreen](#): > > No , you have to identify yourself under certain circumstances - but that only means you must give your name and address. You don’t have to show identification paperwork because there isn’t any requirement that you have identification paperwork. Correct. > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > If the day comes when we are required by law to carry proof of identity around on our persons all day and produce the document(s) when asked by police, we will be most of the way to an authoritarian state. I concur. For a short time LA County Sheriff’s, back some time ago- were hassling black guys _on the beach_ for not having their draft card on their person. So, yeah, it can and has been abused. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450.md?page=4)