# How would you prove you're a citizen? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 19, 2024, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450 "2024-09-19T01:46:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/101 "2024-09-20T19:39:00Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > The fact that the US issues passports is an indication that there exists a way to prove citizenship. But a passport is not meant as a document to prove citizenship. And legal resident aliens can get a US passport. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > A passport as proof of citizenship is unreasonable simply because the expense of getting one is beyond the discretionary income of a lot of Americans. Yep. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I’ve never understood the “papers, please” argument, since we more or less have to have ID when out and about anyway. Okay, _technically_ you don’t have to, as long as you’re willing not to drive or fly or buy alcohol or do any of the other numerous things that require ID. I can buy alcohol without ID, I look well over 21 or 30 or whatever. And i can walk around get on a bus, shop, etc without one. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/102 "2024-09-20T19:48:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But a passport is not meant as a document to prove citizenship. Sorry, what? What do you think a passport is for, then? My understanding is that it was a document whose express purpose was to establish the citizenship of the bearer in a way that was definitive and recognizable internationally. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/103 "2024-09-20T19:48:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And legal resident aliens can get a US passport. What? No way. Can you provide a cite for this? Everything I’m finding says you have to be a citizen. ETA: Ha! Disbelieving simulpost. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/104 "2024-09-20T19:50:55Z")
You can be a US national who is not a US citizen and still get a US passport, but this is a rather small category of people. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/105 "2024-09-20T19:52:26Z")
Oh, like from Guam or something? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/106 "2024-09-20T19:53:08Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Sorry, what? What do you think a passport is for, then? Nope. It is to move between nations. [Key Topics – Bureau of Consular Affairs - United States Department of State](https://www.state.gov/key-topics-bureau-of-consular-affairs/#:~:text=A%20U.S.%20passport%20is%20your,services%20and%20assistance%20while%20abroad). _A U.S. passport is your ticket to international travel. The U.S. passport is **a request to foreign governments to permit you to travel or temporarily reside in their territories and have access to lawful local aid and protection**. The passport allows you access to U.S. consular services and assistance while abroad._ > [@RitterSport](#): > > What? No way. Can you provide a cite for this? Everything I’m finding says you have to be a citizen. Y_es, non-citizen nationals of the United States can apply for a passport at a US Passport Agency or acceptance facility. To be eligible, you must meet the requirements of section 341(b) of the INA, 8 USC 1452(b)._ _Passports issued to non-citizen nationals are stamped “Noncitizen National”._ and here- > **[International Travel as a Permanent Resident | USCIS](https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-we-grant-your-green-card/international-travel-as-a-permanent-resident)** > > What documents do I need to travel outside the United States? > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > You can be a US national who is not a US citizen and still get a US passport, but this is a rather small category of people. Yes, and also a US legal resident. ---
**Author:** ![Die\_Capacitrix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/die_capacitrix/32/9_2.png) [@Die\_Capacitrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Die_Capacitrix)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/107 "2024-09-20T20:02:39Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > You take your proof of citizenship and proof of residence to the county to register to vote and your saying one ahole of a clerk can stop you from registering or voting? My concern here is that those of us who are non-residents will have to jump through expensive hoops to be able to vote, even if we voted just two years ago. So far I’ve never had a problem, but I suspect that any voter suppression will eventually interfere with my right to vote in absentia, without having to go to a US consulate, embassy, or military base. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/108 "2024-09-20T20:04:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Y_es, non-citizen nationals of the United States can apply for a passport at a US Passport Agency or acceptance facility. To be eligible, you must meet the requirements of section 341(b) of the INA, 8 USC 1452(b)._ > > _Passports issued to non-citizen nationals are stamped “Noncitizen National”._ Is _that_ what you meant by “legal resident aliens”? Because _that_ phrase sounds like you’re describing permanent residents (green card holders), who can’t, I think, get a US passport. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/109 "2024-09-20T20:05:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I can buy alcohol without ID No, technically you cannot buy alcohol without an ID. The selling party has the right to request an ID from you before making the sale. If you don’t have an ID, they can refuse the sale. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/110 "2024-09-20T20:07:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > and here- > > [International Travel as a Permanent Resident | USCIS](https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-we-grant-your-green-card/international-travel-as-a-permanent-resident) I searched that page and found nothing that stated that Permanent Residents (holders of Green Cards) can apply for and receive a US passport. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/111 "2024-09-20T20:11:43Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > No, technically you cannot buy alcohol without an ID. The selling party has the right to request an ID from you before making the sale. If you don’t have an ID, they can refuse the sale. I certainly can and I have. You mean they can refuse? Sure they can. In fact if I want to buy a pack of chewing gum they can refuse. > **[Checking Identification | Alcoholic Beverage Control](https://www.abc.ca.gov/education/licensee-education/checking-identification/)** > > State of California ## Good I.D. Policies _The following are some good ID policies:_ _Ask for ID from anyone who appears youthful. If someone asks why you are checking their ID, let them know that it’s your store policy to check ID’s for anyone that appears youthful and possibly under the age of 21._ See, even CA Alcoholic Beverage Control does not say to check ID in every case, only if they appear 'youthful". At my local Ralphs, the policy is if they look under 30. Altho at Target once, they demanded my ID then they were gonna scan it in- I refused, and just left all my shopping there, walked out. I will SHOW my ID, but Target has been hit by hackers, and no, they aint gonna scan my ID. In fact, I just plain no longer shop there. That was the only time I have been carded in the last 4 decades or so. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/112 "2024-09-20T20:28:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Y_es, non-citizen nationals of the United States can apply for a passport at a US Passport Agency or acceptance facility. To be eligible, you must meet the requirements of section 341(b) of the INA, 8 USC 1452(b)._ Yes, those are people from American Samoa and Swains Island, wherever that is. Not permanent residents. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/113 "2024-09-20T20:44:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Altho at Target once, they demanded my ID then they were gonna scan it in And you didn’t show it to them, and you didn’t buy alcohol. Kinda proves my point. > [@DrDeth](#): > > See, even CA Alcoholic Beverage Control does not say to check ID in every case And I never claimed they should and will check ID. My point was that, without an ID, you can be refused the sale. Just because you (and I) have purchased alcohol without showing an ID doesn’t mean that you don’t need said ID. But this is getting a bit far afield from the OP, so I’m done with this sidebar. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/114 "2024-09-20T20:49:45Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > And you didn’t show it to them, and you didn’t buy alcohol. Kinda proves my point. Yes, and they could refuse to serve me if I bought a pack of gum, also. That prove no point, except Target is run by assholes. > [@Railer13](#): > > Just because you (and I) have purchased alcohol without showing an ID doesn’t mean that you don’t need said ID. Yes, that is EXACTLY what that means, and I even gave a cite from the CA Alcoholic Beverage Control saying that ID is not needed if the person looks older. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/115 "2024-09-20T21:16:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And legal resident aliens can get a US passport. Can you explain this further? When I got a passport (the first one, anyway), I had to produce proof of citizenship. Subsequent passports based on the first. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/116 "2024-09-20T22:00:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope. It is to move between nations. > [Key Topics – Bureau of Consular Affairs - United States Department of State](https://www.state.gov/key-topics-bureau-of-consular-affairs/#:~:text=A%20U.S.%20passport%20is%20your,services%20and%20assistance%20while%20abroad). > _A U.S. passport is your ticket to international travel. The U.S. passport is **a request to foreign governments to permit you to travel or temporarily reside in their territories and have access to lawful local aid and protection**. The passport allows you access to U.S. consular services and assistance while abroad._ I think this is a distinction without a difference. The US government does not offer this travel document to people unless they are citizens or one of a small handful of near-citizen categories. When you pass through a port (travel) with a passport, the agent there uses that document to ascertain which country is vouching for you as one of theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/117 "2024-09-20T22:03:34Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > and here- > > > > [International Travel as a Permanent Resident | USCIS](https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-we-grant-your-green-card/international-travel-as-a-permanent-resident) > > I searched that page and found nothing that stated that Permanent Residents (holders of Green Cards) can apply for and receive a US passport. In fact, that page says, > What documents do I need to travel outside the United States? > In general, you will need to present a passport from your country of citizenship or your refugee travel document to travel to a foreign country. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/118 "2024-09-20T22:47:10Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Yes, those are people from American Samoa and Swains Island, wherever that is. Not permanent residents. This. People born in American Samoa are “American nationals”, but not American citizens. This is news to me; I didn’t know there was such a thing as an American national who was not an American citizen. > **[Certificates of Non Citizen Nationality](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Certificates-Non-Citizen-Nationality.html)** > > Certificates of Non Citizen Nationality This is also news to me because if you look at the process to apply for a passport for the first time, step 3 is to gather proof of citizenship: > **[Apply for your First Passport as an Adult](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/need-passport/apply-in-person.html)** > > Information on how to apply for your first U.S. passport as an adult, or get a new passport if you do not qualify to renew a passport. You may need to apply in person if your most recent passport is damaged, or was lost or stolen. It’s unambiguous. There’s no mention here of non-citizen nationals being eligible for a passport. Weird. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/119 "2024-09-20T22:54:53Z")
This thread is a great lesson to read the provided cites in a discussion. Don’t take it for granted that the person providing them has actually read them or is honest about their content. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450/120 "2024-09-20T23:19:06Z")
Good grief. 🤦🏽‍♀️ I leave you people alone for a few hours… 🙄 🙄 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-prove-youre-a-citizen/1007450.md?page=7)