How would you prove you're a citizen?

If you click a little bit on Wikipedia, you get this picture of an American Samoan passport— at least the caption says it is a passport and not some other form of laissez passer—

and it has prominent text on it that the holder is not a United States citizen. Therefore, the people in question are eligible for it, all right (otherwise you can imagine they would have a really tough time travelling), but it by no means proves they are US citizens; exactly the opposite, in fact. No contradiction there.

And yes, this is a rare circumstance, but it is possible.

Just so we’re clear, there is no circumstance in which a resident “alien” can obtain a US passport. Non-citizen US Nationals are not “aliens,” resident or otherwise, they are “nationals.”

My cite is section 101(a)(3) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(3)).

(3) The term “alien” means any person not a citizen or national of the United States.

Note that word- national.

As defined by the INA, all U.S. citizens are U.S. nationals but only a relatively small number of persons acquire U.S. nationality without becoming U.S. citizens. Section 101(a)(21) of the INA defines the term “national” as “a person owing permanent allegiance to a state.” Section 101(a)(22) of the INA provides that the term “national of the United States” includes all U.S. citizens as well as persons who, though not citizens of the United States, owe permanent allegiance to the United States (non-citizen nationals).

Section 308 of the INA confers U.S. nationality but not U.S. citizenship, on persons born in “an outlying possession of the United States” or born of a parent or parents who are non-citizen nationals who meet certain physical presence or residence requirements. The term “outlying possessions of the United States” is defined in Section 101(a)(29) of the INA as American Samoa and Swains Island. No other statutes define any other territories or any of the states as outlying possessions.

Apparently, some resident "green card’ aliens qualify as US Nationals, but not citizens, if their parents are nationals. They of course can become citizens.

So, no, just because you have a green card, does not mean you can get a US Passport. You have to be a child of a US national. The whole US nationals who are not citizens is a weird thing.

But yes, some non-citizens can get a US passport. I was led astray by the weird “nationals” thing, and a cite that said they could get a Passport for Green card holders.

I originally opened this thread in Factual Questions. Maybe you didn’t know that. My only “specific intention” was to get a simple factual answer to the question in the topic title.

After a while, people, including myself, wanted to be able to say that this proposed law was an example of Republican voter suppression. This was a way to make it harder for people who had the right to vote to actually vote. And I asked a moderator to move the thread to IMHO. That way we could not just answer the question but also discuss the implications of it. Maybe that’s where you came in.

I’m not sure how what I did was out of character for either.

I answered factually. I wasn’t expecting a bunch of uncalled-for pushback.

Yes! Note that word: alien. As in, an “alien” is by definition NOT a US national. If someone is a US national, they are not an alien, resident or otherwise.

Draw a big circle for US nationals, and within that draw another circle that is almost as big as and completely contained within the US national circle for “US citizens”. And then, draw a separate circle that does not overlap with the US national or US citizen circles called “aliens” and then within the “aliens” circle draw a much much smaller “resident aliens” circle.

There are no aliens, resident or otherwise, who are US nationals, and thus no aliens, resident or otherwise, who may obtain a US passport—or a certification of non-citizen US nationality, even.

Legal permanent residents (resident aliens, if you must) of the US, if they have a passport at all, will have a passport issued by the country of which they are a citizen. And never a US passport. Because if they were US citizens (or even just nationals) and thus entitled to have a US passport or similar document for nationals they would, by definition, not be aliens.

Yes, I said that already. But there are more resident aliens than not, unless you count tourist visas.

But still- my main point stands- you can get a US Passport even if you are not a citizen. US Nationals get one. They are not citizens. Thus a US passport is not proof of citizenship.

Yes , but according to the Department of State

THE BEARER IS A UNITED STATES NATIONAL AND NOT A UNITED STATES CITIZEN.

· Placed in a passport book issued to a U.S. national who is not a citizen.
· “U.S. National” will be printed instead of “USA” on the front of the passport card.

So while it’s true that mere possession of a US passport is not proof of citizenship as they are also issued to US nationals, it’s also true that a passport without that endorsement is proof of citizenship. Which is not the case with IDs that can be issued to anyone who is legally in the US and don’t indicate on the actual ID what their legal status is. A REAL ID could be proof of citizenship if they had any indication of citizenship status but they don’t , not even “The Bearer is not a US citizen” when applicable.

Do non-US nationals have citizenship anywhere?

It seems to me that the entire category exists as a special phrase for “US citizens who can’t….”

Do other countries even have non-citizen nationals?

Anyway, since non-citizen nationals’ passports indicate that status, passports still fo prove citizenship. You just have to read more than one page, is all.

I do not think this type of situation is super common, but it does happen, e.g., as a consequence of colonialist enterprises, so you might have British nationality (and a British passport) but not citizenship if you were born in Hong Kong, for example.

You mean like an immigrant to American Samoa who is not a US national or citizen? They may have American Samoan citizenship, but otherwise be screwed: OP ED: “LAMENTATIONS OF A THIRD-CLASS AMERICAN SAMOAN CITIZEN” | American Samoa | Samoa News

Sucks to be stateless, yet millions of people are, through no fault of their own.

I have an “enhanced driver license” (different than RealID) that is proof of US citizenship. I don’t know if all states offer these or not though.

Wiki suggests it’s only five. Possibly 6 in the near future, with Ohio pending.

I didn’t realize Real ID and Enhanced ID weren’t the same thing (and thus that Real ID is not proof of citizenship for entry to the US) until I was just about to walk across the border into Mexico and figured I’d better double-check. Fortunately, I did and grabbed my passport before making the journey.