# How would you punish Osama bin Laden?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [October 27, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526 "2004-10-27T19:55:36Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 10
### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/181 "2004-10-30T00:13:50Z")
Concerning torture :
I can construct some situations where the use of torture could be justified (the usual “there’s a nuclear bomb concealed somewhere, and only him knows where it is”) . And I’ve a very clear opinion about this. If you think you’re in such a situation, then go for it. But go for it _knowing_ that you’re committing a crime and that that no law or even “we’ll look the other way” guarantee will protect you from the consequences of your decision.
If the need to have recourse to torture isn’t worth standing a trial, isn’t worth spending years upon years in jail, then we can safely assume that the issue at stakes isn’t vital enough, in your own opinion.
Besides, if using torture on an Iraki terrorist is good enough if it can save some american soldiers, then torturing an american occupier is good enough if it can save some Iraki freedom fighters too. Don’t complain if it happens (I’m adressing the like of Roseworm, here). They just are in agreement with you. They share your values.
I don’t share these values. And fortunately, the overwhelming majority of posters on this board don’t, either. You belong to the other side. You’re one of these hate-sowers, of these ennemies of freedom we have a duty to fight. You don’t stand with us against the likes of Bin Laden, you stand with the likes of Bin Laden against us. You used machetes in Rwanda, electricity in Chile, rape in Bosnia, starvation in Cambodia, Zyklon B in Germany. Do you remember when you did?
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### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/182 "2004-10-30T00:18:40Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#):
>
> I’m glad to hear someone else saying this. It seems to me the only way to rid the world of OBL without making a marta of him. I’m sure he has enough enimies in Saudia Arabia to ensure the trial doesn’t last forever, he surely has published enough videos of himself to make the link to 9/11 proveable. And the murder of Muslims (and I hope other faiths) carries the death penalty in that country, many Muslims must have been amongst those killed in the twin towers.
And many, many muslims (even amongst the moderates) hate the Saudis, and view them as the lackeys of the USA (amongst other things). It wouldn’t change a thing.
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### Author:  [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/183 "2004-10-30T01:01:03Z")
> [@clairobscur](#):
>
> Besides, if using torture on an Iraki terrorist is good enough if it can save some american soldiers, then torturing an american occupier is good enough if it can save some Iraki freedom fighters too. Don’t complain if it happens (I’m adressing the like of Roseworm, here).
(I’m not singling you out **Clairo** )
I think this whole notion of “saving” others by utilizing information gained from torture is a bit silly. Look at Abu Ghraib, we tortured them to either get info, or to set an example to all to give up info. In the short run it provided some intel (did it even?), but in the long run we have hundreds of _really_ angry prisoners who will now do _anything_ to take us out. They’ll call for jihad, they’ll spread hatred, etc, etc.
Torture isn’t as effective as we’d like to believe.
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### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/184 "2004-10-30T04:14:04Z")
> [@World Eater](#):
>
> (I’m not singling you out **Clairo** )
>
> I think this whole notion of “saving” others by utilizing information gained from torture is a bit silly. Look at Abu Ghraib, we tortured them to either get info, or to set an example to all to give up info. In the short run it provided some intel (did it even?), but in the long run we have hundreds of _really_ angry prisoners who will now do _anything_ to take us out. They’ll call for jihad, they’ll spread hatred, etc, etc.
>
> Torture isn’t as effective as we’d like to believe.
You know, I agree, but I think what you’ve missed here is that nobody in this thread (that I’ve seen) has advocated torture as a general policy. It’s either been in contrived, almost unbelievable circumstances (Where’s the nuke you set to blow, you bastard) or as revenge on one individual responsible for an extrodinarily heinous act. In spite of the hand wringing of those opposed unconditionally, nobody has advocated torture as an OK, everyday thing. I actually thought Clairobscur was dead on when he said
> [@](#):
>
> "And I’ve a very clear opinion about this. If you think you’re in such a situation, then go for it. But go for it _knowing_ that you’re committing a crime and that that no law or even “we’ll look the other way” guarantee will protect you from the consequences of your decision.
>
> If the need to have recourse to torture isn’t worth standing a trial, isn’t worth spending years upon years in jail, then we can safely assume that the issue at stakes isn’t vital enough, in your own opinion.
I would torture the terrorist for the location of the bomb, and then expect to be held accountable for it if we survived. OBL I’d rather marginalize rotting in a dusty jail cell or executed by an Islamic court, no matter how tempting the vision of grabbing him by his beard, cutting off his balls and crucifying him before burying him beneath a pig sty with a slice of ham in his mouth is.
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### Author:  [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/185 "2004-10-30T04:34:07Z")
> [@Weirddave](#):
>
> I would torture the terrorist for the location of the bomb, and then expect to be held accountable for it if we survived. .
I’m still unclear as to some important details in the bomb scenario.
1. How do we _know_ there’s a bomb?
2. How do we _know_ that this guy is a terrorist?
3. If he is a terrorist, how do we _know_ that he is privvy to the location of said bomb and when it’s to go off?
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/186 "2004-10-30T04:45:20Z")
> [@spooje](#):
>
> I’m still unclear as to some important details in the bomb scenario.
>
> 1. How do we _know_ there’s a bomb?
>
> 2. How do we _know_ that this guy is a terrorist?
>
> 3. If he is a terrorist, how do we _know_ that he is privvy to the location of said bomb and when it’s to go off?
Because it says so in the screenplay.
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### Author:  [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/187 "2004-10-30T04:49:41Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> Because it says so in the screenplay.
Exactly!
We’re talking hypotheticals here, **spooje**.
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### Author:  [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/188 "2004-10-30T04:51:38Z")
Yeah, but I don’t want the screenplay to read “spooje is tied down to the chair with a terrified look on his face…”
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### Author:  [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/189 "2004-10-30T05:10:28Z")
Hmm…just what do you know, anyway?
:: **SA** starts plucking straws from his broom and lubing up a set of pliers ::
Kidding, kidding…you know I kid.
Actually I’m a guy who saves bugs and takes 'em outside rather than kill them. I’ve even been known to set June bugs back on their feet…but the dummies invariably just buzz around a little and wind up on their backs again.
I only advocate cruelty to the cruel.
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### Author:  [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/190 "2004-10-30T05:42:56Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#):
>
> I only advocate cruelty to the cruel.
At which point you become just as much of an inhuman bastard as them, whether you care to believe it or not
You weaselled out of my question above: I do not care _how_ or _why_; what do you do when the broom straw is up your wife or child’s nose at the hands of the government?
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### Author:  [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/191 "2004-10-30T06:03:41Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> If convicted of murder, he gets life in prison with no parole. If we wish to inflict revenge, put a life size poster of Dick Cheney in the nude on each of his cell walls.
This is very close to my thought. I was thinking get a neon lighted poster of Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld pointing Uncle-Sam-like with a tagline of:
“Who’s you’re daddy, bitch!”
Posibly with Ron Jeremy’s erect penis photshopped onto all 3.
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### Author:  [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/192 "2004-10-30T06:14:56Z")
> [@Ilsa\_Lund](#):
>
> At which point you become just as much of an inhuman bastard as them, whether you care to believe it or not
Well, if you’ll pardon me, I do indeed believe no such thing! I believe that if I were to murder three thousand innocent mothers and fathers going about their daily business, or kidnap, rape and murder a small child, then I would as much of an inhuman bastard as them.
The notion that giving them as good as they give makes us no better than them is a fallacious one. One might as well say that the police officer who shoots and kills a murderer is no better than the murderer himself.
> [@Ilsa\_Lund](#):
>
> You weaselled out of my question above: I do not care _how_ or _why_; what do you do when the broom straw is up your wife or child’s nose at the hands of the government?
Well, pardon me, but I weaselled out of nothing. The question was poorly phrased and the scenarios highly unlikely. I didn’t want to have to take the time to straighten it out.
But the short answer consists of two parts:
One, I never advocated “government sponsored” torture, nor torture at the will and discretion of whichever law enfordcement agency was involved. I proposed that if it were to be used it would only be after a determination had been made by a judge that the evidence justified its application. In each of the scenarios you presented, a preliminary investigation would quickly reveal that the family members in question had nothing to do with the crimes.
In the case of the son who actually did kidnap a child, he better cough up the information or suffer the consequences. It’s up to courts and law enforcement agencies to determine and enforce who is entitled to custody of a child. If the child is being abused, legal efforts should be undertaken to get him or her out of that situation. We can’t have a society where people are free to kidnap their children from a custodial parent simply on the say-so of the kidnapping parent that abuse is occuring.
Secondly, assuming that due diligence hadn’t been followed and it was wrongfully applied to a family member, I would try to punish the people and/or agency responsible by whatever the law would allow. Just like we do now if someone is wrongfully arrested or beaten while in custody or denied medicine or needed medical treatment, I would sue for criminal malfeasance if applicable, and for punitive monetary damages to the extent the law allows.
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### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/193 "2004-10-30T06:15:17Z")
> [@spooje](#):
>
> Yeah, but I don’t want the screenplay to read “spooje is tied down to the chair with a terrified look on his face…”
…and in walks a clown with a venomous look on his face. He pulls down Spooje’s pants and hits spooge in the genitals with a cream pie, while all of spooje’s friends, family and particularly Josh Johnson, the 2nd grade bully who made spooje’s life a living hell, stand by and watch and laugh.
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### Author:  [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/194 "2004-10-30T06:47:44Z")
However, **spooje** , who has discovered the secret of male enhancement and is now the envy of even the aforementioned Ron Jeremy, merely sits with a smug smile on his face while everyone slowly begins to look at him in awe.
Now that would be a secret worth torturing out of someone…
Hey, **spooje** , c’mere.
:: SA chases **spooje** around the room with straw and pliers ::
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### Author:  [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/195 "2004-10-30T07:06:37Z")
> [@Weirddave](#):
>
> …and in walks a clown with a venomous look on his face. He pulls down Spooje’s pants and hits spooge in the genitals with a cream pie, while all of spooje’s friends, family and particularly Josh Johnson, the 2nd grade bully who made spooje’s life a living hell, stand by and watch and laugh.
Josh? Is that you???
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### Author:  [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/196 "2004-10-30T07:29:33Z")
> [@Weirddave](#):
>
> You know, I agree, but I think what you’ve missed here is that nobody in this thread (that I’ve seen) has advocated torture as a general policy. It’s either been in contrived, almost unbelievable circumstances (Where’s the nuke you set to blow, you bastard) or as revenge on one individual responsible for an extrodinarily heinous act. In spite of the hand wringing of those opposed unconditionally, nobody has advocated torture as an OK, everyday thing. I actually thought Clairobscur was dead on when he said
>
> I would torture the terrorist for the location of the bomb, and then expect to be held accountable for it if we survived. OBL I’d rather marginalize rotting in a dusty jail cell or executed by an Islamic court, no matter how tempting the vision of grabbing him by his beard, cutting off his balls and crucifying him before burying him beneath a pig sty with a slice of ham in his mouth is.
Wrong question.
The question to answer is when does it become acceptable for you for hostile Iraqis to torture Americans.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/197 "2004-10-30T15:42:08Z")
And that’s really one of the most key points. Any time we torture them, we are making it legitimate for them to torture us. We are giving them _permission_ to torture American POWs. We are saying that torture is now inbounds. Please torture those pilots you shot down yesterday. You can’t just decide that Americans have some authority that the enemy doesn’t have. Whatever we say it’s ok for us to do, we are also saying it’s ok for them to do.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/198 "2004-10-30T15:44:49Z")
“There’s a reason why we sign these treaties. To protect my son in the military. That’s why we have these treaties, so when Americans are captured, they are not tortured.”
-Sen. Joe Biden
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### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/199 "2004-10-30T16:21:53Z")
> [@sevastopol](#):
>
> Wrong question.
>
> The question to answer is when does it become acceptable for you for hostile Iraqis to torture Americans.
I have never said that it was acceptable for Iraqis to torture Americans, or fpr Americans to torture Iraqis. What are you driving at?
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### Author:  [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-punish-osama-bin-laden/271526/200 "2004-10-30T16:28:19Z")
Well then I mistook your drift. Carry on without me.
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