# How would you replace penalties in soccer/football? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** football-soccer-fifa\ **Created:** [July 6, 2021, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855 "2021-07-06T21:52:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/1 "2021-07-06T21:52:06Z")
If you want to jump in and say, penalties are fine, you Americans don’t understand the finer points of football, please find another thread. My problem with penalties is that they are essentially a coin flip. Let’s try something less random! OK, the UEFA, FIFA, etc., have decided to ditch penalties after overtime for games that cannot end in a tie. That decision has been made, there’s nothing you can do about it. So, they come to you for advice on what they should replace it with. Here’s my suggestion. After 90+30, you have one more continuous period (feel free to switch sides every 15 minutes if necessary, but just enough of a break to switch sides). The game will end with a golden goal/sudden death (depending on what sports you follow) – that is, next goal wins. Allow unlimited substitutions, and subs can be done on the fly like in hockey and lacrosse – you don’t have to wait for a stoppage of play. What do you think? What would you come up with? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/2 "2021-07-06T22:00:39Z")
Sudden death, yes. Reusing players who already subbed out, yes. As much as I’d like to see hockey-style subs of tagging your replacement with no stoppage of play, I think it’s too big a departure from normal play. Either do that for the whole game or not at all. My other proposal, which will infuriate purists, would be reduced players during sudden death (like hockey). Each team plays with 7 or 8 to increase the chances of a breakaway. And for that matter, how about no offsides rule during OT? ---
**Author:** ![CardboardBoxx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardboardboxx/32/7079_2.png) [@CardboardBoxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CardboardBoxx)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/3 "2021-07-06T22:21:37Z")
How would you remove an “offsides rule” when no such rule exists? ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/4 "2021-07-06T22:23:37Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > My other proposal, which will infuriate purists, would be reduced players during sudden death (like hockey). Each team plays with 7 or 8 to increase the chances of a breakaway. I agree with this, except that you start with 11-on-11 (or maybe 10-on-10), but every 10 minutes, each side removes a player until one (or both) is down to the minimum 7. Any solution will “infuriate purists.” Even unlimited 11-on-11 sudden death will have people complaining that it rewards endurance over ability. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/5 "2021-07-06T22:33:23Z")
I am an American who does not understand the finer points of European football, but I have some sympathy for [Attacker-Defender Goalkeeper](http://www.theadgalternative.com/) as an alternative to the penalty shootout. That’s what we’re discussing, right? Then again, I prefer basically all serious alternatives to the penalty shootout, including coin tosses. Not to mention a number of unserious alternatives. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/6 "2021-07-06T22:36:58Z")
> [@CardboardBoxx](#): > > How would you remove an “offsides rule” when no such rule exists? I don’t think I get the particular nit you’re picking. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > …but I have some sympathy for [Attacker-Defender Goalkeeper](http://www.theadgalternative.com/) as an alternative to the penalty shootout. Yeah, even that would be better than the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![CardboardBoxx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardboardboxx/32/7079_2.png) [@CardboardBoxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CardboardBoxx)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/7 "2021-07-06T22:37:56Z")
No more regular play, 120 minutes is enough. The best solution I heard was a sudden death, (not 5 each), penalty shootout immediately after 90 minute whistle, the winner of which gets 0.5 goals, this at least leaves both sides aware of what happens at the end of extra time if it is drawn. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/8 "2021-07-06T22:41:02Z")
This is still a penalty shootout, though, just sooner. FIFA is telling you to eliminate shootouts, not get more of them. ---
**Author:** ![CardboardBoxx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardboardboxx/32/7079_2.png) [@CardboardBoxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CardboardBoxx)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/9 "2021-07-06T22:43:09Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I don’t think I get the particular nit you’re picking. The rule is “offside”, not “offsides” Saying “offsides” is just wrong. > [@RitterSport](#): > > This is still a penalty shootout, though, just sooner. FIFA is telling you to eliminate shootouts, not get more of them. OK let’s make it a “who can kick the ball farthest” competition, just do it at the 90 minute mark not 120. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/10 "2021-07-06T22:45:06Z")
> [@CardboardBoxx](#): > > OK let’s make it a “who can kick the ball farthest” competition, just do it at the 90 minute mark not 120. Sure! That would be more fun than penalties, and less of a coin flip. And, goalies would shine! ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/11 "2021-07-06T22:49:02Z")
Golden goal after 90 minutes. 15 minute periods, switch sides. Substitutions allowed only at start of each period, but players may re-enter the game. If sub comes in for injured player, the injured player cannot re-enter the game. I hate penalties determining the winner. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/12 "2021-07-06T22:51:03Z")
For completeness, we’ve discussed this before. > [@Ways to get rid of penalty kicks to decide a game](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-get-rid-of-penalty-kicks-to-decide-a-game/758568): > > I’ve noticed that many people here say that using kicks is bad, but there is no good way to avoid it. What would you do to avoid the problem? To me the simple solution is add more subs and keep playing. Same as baseball, basketball, and hockey. I was at a NHL finals game that went almost 120 minutes. Yes, they were tired but the level of play was OK , at least to me. (BTW if you are OK with kicks then you don’t need to reply here) > [@Ways to avoid PKs to get a winner in football/soccer](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136): > > Many people say PKs are bad but there is no other way to get a winner after 120 minutes are played since players are too tired. What other ideas have been tried to avoid using PKs when the game is tied? A simple suggestion is sudden death - first goal in OT wins the game. Used in the NHL for the playoffs and I think other hockey leagues. I’ll repost my previous answer: > [@Ways to avoid PKs to get a winner in football/soccer](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ways-to-avoid-pks-to-get-a-winner-in-football-soccer/837136/8): > > Phase one: corner kicks. Both teams send five players to each end zone. Goalies stay put. First player of one team picks a corner, does the corner kick, play continues for ten seconds. Once time runs out, at the other end of the field, first player of other team picks a corner, does the corner kick, play continues for ten seconds. Repeat for second through fifth players of each team. After all ten corner kicks, if tie is broken, game over. Otherwise, the goalies (and no one else) switch ends. Repeat corner kicks for the next set of players. After everyone (except goalies) has taken corner kicks, either tie is broken, or move on to second phase. > > Phase two: free kicks. Keep the same five-five-goalie split of each team. First player of one team picks any spot on the field out side the box, free kicks from that spot, play continues for ten seconds. Once time runs out, do same thing at other end of the field. After five free kicks from each team, either tie is broken or goalies only swap ends, and play continues with next set of free kicks. After everyone has take a free kick, either tie is broken, or move on to third phase. > > Phase three: penalty kicks. Same as current tie breaker. > > The idea behind this set of tie-breakers is that play changes from most like regular play to least like. Instead of switching immediately to play that is very dissimilar to usual play, step through several modes. The “play for ten seconds after the kick” opens up some different tactics. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/13 "2021-07-06T23:13:54Z")
> [@CardboardBoxx](#): > > The rule is “offside”, not “offsides” Saying “offsides” is just wrong. I figured you must be picking a nit, but even I didn’t guess it would be something as picky as that. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/14 "2021-07-06T23:20:05Z")
It’s one of those really stupid nitpicks that simply doesn’t take into account changes in vocabulary in American English, and in part because it’s a transfer from a more popular game. Much like when people get really angry at the term soccer or using goalie like it’s a hockey game. I think it tells you much more about the person complaining than the person using the “wrong” term. And speaking of other games, hockey sometimes goes down to 3 on 3. That tends to go fast, since it’s fewer players on the same surface and it’s easier to get loose and score. Would something like that, say, seven on a side just to throw a number out, make a goal more likely and be an interesting replacement or would it be even slower? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2021, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/15 "2021-07-07T06:21:56Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Sure! That would be more fun than penalties, and less of a coin flip. And, goalies would shine! The important part of **Cardboard Boxx’s** idea is that the “coin flip” or whatever happens _before_ extra time, not after. Keeping kicks from the penalty mark (they are _not_ “penalties” or “penalty kicks”) and doing them before extra time is the only change to the status quo I’ve ever heard that would improve the situation, not make it worse. In keeping with the rules of **RitterSports** hypothetical I would take the tack that **Cardboard** did but instead of a distance kicking contest I would make it a coin flip (but again, BEFORE extra time. That is the key). A coin flip? Yes. No more soccer should be played because the game is over after extra time. Done. Kaput. Over. Remember that the outcome of the game has been already been determined before the kicks from the mark take place. That is-- the game ended in a draw and it is recorded that way. Kicks from the mark are NOT to determine a winner (there can’t be one one because it’s a draw) they are to determine who advances to the next round of the competition or, in the case of the final game, who wins the tournament. > [@TroutMan](#): > > > [@CardboardBoxx](#): > > > > The rule is “offside”, not “offsides” Saying “offsides” is just wrong. > > I figured you must be picking a nit, but even I didn’t guess it would be something as picky as that. Hey they finally stopped calling it “offsides” in the NFL, you’d think Americans could get on board with the proper terminology. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2021, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/16 "2021-07-07T07:01:00Z")
There is nothing wrong with the game ending with a draw after extra time, using penalties to decide who goes through to the next round is also fine. If that option is completely out of the question then I’d prefer to see another off-field metric used rather than some on-field re-versioning of the game. We could reward attacking play and/or fair play by using corners awarded or fouls/cards conceded. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2021, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/17 "2021-07-07T07:44:59Z")
All this talk of extra extra time and sudden death shows a lack of knowledge about the game. Sudden death (golden goal) has been tried before and it was a disaster - the teams shrank back into defensive positions because they were too scared to take risks. And extra time is already really punishing on the players - ever noticed how half the teams end up with leg cramps? It would be truly unfair on a team that’s gone onto play 150 minutes of one game to then have to play against another team that’s just done 90. If we can’t have penalties, then I would go for set pieces - corners and direct free kicks - but even then, we might struggle to get a result. At least penalties guarantees that (and I like them, as long as my team isn’t in them) Gary Linekar has suggested that extra time is rubbish, kills the players and hardly ever produces a result, and games should just go straight to penalties. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2021, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/18 "2021-07-07T07:59:09Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > If we can’t have penalties, then I would go for set pieces - corners and direct free kicks - but even then, we might struggle to get a result. At least penalties guarantees that (and I like them, as long as my team isn’t in them) A quick scan of the stats suggests that maybe only 1 in 20 corners or free kicks results in a goal. How long does it take to run even a set 5 penalties for each team? We could be here all night in order to get a result that didn’t approximate a flip of the coin. I’m not sure that any other solution is ultimately less gimmicky or objectively “fairer” to the teams. I do like the idea of penalty kicks being done prior to the game itself in knockout play (but that of course involves penalty kicks and so is disallowed by the standards of the OP) ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2021, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/19 "2021-07-07T10:13:52Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Hey they finally stopped calling it “offsides” in the NFL, you’d think Americans could get on board with the proper terminology. Aside: When did this happen? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2021, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855/20 "2021-07-07T10:26:12Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > When did this happen? I guess there wasn’t any official decision or anything. I’ve just noticed—over the past 5 years or so—that on-mic referees and most commentators refer to the infraction as “offside”. I can’t say for sure but it’s my impression that referees used to say “offsides” and I’m pretty sure most coaches, players, and jaw-flappers did. In any event the term used in gridiron rulebooks (NFL at least) is “offside” and maybe it always has been? If it _was_ called “offsides” in American football that would at least explain why so many Americans use the plural term for the soccer infraction. But instead they’re just doubly wrong which is American Exceptionalism, I suppose. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-replace-penalties-in-soccer-football/945855.md?page=2)