# How would you respond to finding out... **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 20, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418 "2010-09-20T15:45:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/41 "2010-09-23T17:32:22Z")
If you have a laptop with an optical drive, you probably don’t even have to check them out (my township library doesn’t have items locked up). ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/42 "2010-09-23T17:42:48Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Am I a shithead by proxy if I decide to donate all my CDs that currently clutter up my house to the local library after I rip them to my hard-drive? After all, I am doing it with the express hope to “share” the music with anyone who might want to hear it. I’d assume that, like most donated items, the library would sell them for fifty cents each at its next book sale. I don’t think most donated stuff finds its way onto the shelves. As for the OP, the justification is really weak but I don’t see it as worse than file sharing – theft, but theft I don’t particularly care about. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/43 "2010-09-23T17:51:43Z")
It is legally theft. But I’m not very moved by it. Record company practices are so outrageous that they amount to legalized theft. So I’m not very sympathetic when people steal from them in turn. It’s like hearing somebody robbed a drug dealer. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/44 "2010-09-23T18:53:25Z")
It’s not wrong. It’s no worse than traveling back in a time machine to 1983, checking out Todd Rundgren’s **The Ever Popular Tortured Artist Effect** LP from your local library, going home, and making a copy of it on cassette for you to blast from your Walkman/boom box/car stereo to your heart’s content, and then returning it. Your (or your parents’/guardians’) taxes _do_ provide the library with much of its funding, and you are pretty much able to check out and enjoy its materials any way you wish, as long as you don’t damage them or not return them. ---
**Author:** ![VanillaGorilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@VanillaGorilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VanillaGorilla)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/45 "2010-09-24T07:00:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > _“No worse than online file sharing.”_ - which I don’t regards as “theft”, either. It may or may not be wrong, but I don’t regard something as theft when the person supposedly robbed still has what you supposedly took from him. IMHO, the main reason for calling it theft is to whip up moral outrage, because “unauthorized copying” just doesn’t sound as bad. Read this again people. Copying something is NOT theft! ---
**Author:** ![missred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/missred/32/14096_2.png) [@missred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missred)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/46 "2010-09-24T08:17:45Z")
Theft. How would it not be? I view it a bit like the speeding illustration used above, but it’s still theft. You’re using my (hypothetical songwriter) intellectual property without compensating me. As the owner of copyrighted material, you’re screwing me financially. That’s theft. ---
**Author:** ![VanillaGorilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@VanillaGorilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VanillaGorilla)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/47 "2010-09-24T10:00:26Z")
> [@missred](#): > > Theft. How would it not be? > > I view it a bit like the speeding illustration used above, but it’s still theft. You’re using my (hypothetical songwriter) intellectual property without compensating me. As the owner of copyrighted material, you’re screwing me financially. That’s theft. If I steal your car, then you will have actually lost something, that is, the car you had is no longer there, and you can’t use it anymore. If I illegaly copy a song, then the owner of the IP does indeed not get paid, but the song is still there for him/her to sell again and again. It might not be moral to download/copy stuff illegaly, but it is certainly not theft. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/48 "2010-09-24T13:33:13Z")
> [@VanillaGorilla](#): > > It might not be moral to download/copy stuff illegaly, but it is certainly not theft. It _is_ theft because that’s how it’s defined. When I pirate a movie, I’m depriving the producers of that movie the money they are owed for the IP. Saying that I’m “stealing a movie” is a shortcut to saying “I’m stealing the profit from the producers of that movie.” It’s theft, pure and simple, and I don’t try to justify any alleged piracy by telling myself that I’m not really stealing. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/49 "2010-09-24T14:08:12Z")
Its theft, but I wouldn’t work my panties into a bunch over it. I wouldn’t make any effort to become friends with that person, since they are on my “not terribly ethical” list. Anyone who takes advantage of the artist by ripping CDs (and yeah, I’m not a fan of the music industry either, but the artist DOES make a living off his work - or tries to), might choose to take advantage of me, ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/50 "2010-09-24T14:59:38Z")
Not a great crime, but a reason not to make this entitled stranger a friend. I’m proud of my music collection–LP’s & CD’s. All lined up prettily. I no longer buy as much–space is limited. But I subscribe to Rhapsody–so maybe the artists get some money. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/51 "2010-09-24T15:09:49Z")
> [@VanillaGorilla](#): > > If I steal your car, then you will have actually lost something, that is, the car you had is no longer there, and you can’t use it anymore. > If I illegaly copy a song, then the owner of the IP does indeed not get paid, but the song is still there for him/her to sell again and again. > > It might not be moral to download/copy stuff illegaly, but it is certainly not theft. No, it definitely is theft, both legally and morally. It’s like if there’s a movie theatre and you sneak in and watch the movie without buying a ticket. You’re stealing. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/52 "2010-09-24T15:11:14Z")
Meh. Who cares? And I don’t see how it’s theft as he got & returned them from the _library_. No one is out either money or product. If he had bought them from a store, copied them, then returned them, yes that would be theft. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/53 "2010-09-24T15:22:00Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Meh. Who cares? And I don’t see how it’s theft as he got & returned them from the _library_. No one is out either money or product. If he had bought them from a store, copied them, then returned them, yes that would be theft. How do you believe no one is out money or product? If he had purchased them, the record company and the artist would both have received a cut (plus, the distribution company - Apple, Napster, whoever). Plenty of people are out money when you do this. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/54 "2010-09-24T15:51:20Z")
I can’t bring myself to care about “stealing music” whether it’s copying CDs or file sharing programs. I remember seeing some kind of public service announcement years ago where Snoop Dogg was trying to shame people into not pirating music. Uh, yeah…cuz that would be way more wrong than anything he does and advocates doing, I’m sure. Obviously he only cares about money, not the ethics of it. So he can go screw himself, as far as I’m concerned, because he already has way more money than I do, and I wouldn’t buy his CDs anyway, so it’s not costing him a thing if I decide to Limewire one of his songs on a rare occasion. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/55 "2010-09-24T16:13:39Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > > > And you’re without fault, right :rolleyes: > > Not at all. But I stopped pirating when I got out of college and could afford to pay for my entertainment, and I never put a blameless employee to trouble. It’s not the pirating I care about, it’s the dicking over of a wage worker. Unless the wage worker gets commission, which seems unlikely for someone selling computer games, I don’t see how it’s dicking them over. On another note, here’s a fun one: Say you had a CD that you purchased legally, but then some asshole stole it from you, so you downloaded it again from a file sharing program. Is that still wrong? Or what if you still have the CD, but you’re trying to make a mix CD and you figure it would be easier to just Limewire a song instead of track down and rip it from your CD? (These have both happened to me, but then again I download music I never purchased at all too, so I’m not using it as a personal justification.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/56 "2010-09-24T17:05:23Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > Unless the wage worker gets commission, which seems unlikely for someone selling computer games, I don’t see how it’s dicking them over. > > On another note, here’s a fun one: Say you had a CD that you purchased legally, but then some asshole stole it from you, so you downloaded it again from a file sharing program. Is that still wrong? Or what if you still have the CD, but you’re trying to make a mix CD and you figure it would be easier to just Limewire a song instead of track down and rip it from your CD? > > (These have both happened to me, but then again I download music I never purchased at all too, so I’m not using it as a personal justification.) I think is pretty much the whole issue. When I take something that doesn’t belong to me, it’s harmless. But when somebody else takes something that belongs to me, that asshole stole it. (And I include the record companies in this. They have no problem with ripping people off. They just hate it when somebody rips them off.) ---
**Author:** ![missred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/missred/32/14096_2.png) [@missred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missred)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/57 "2010-09-24T18:26:56Z")
> [@VanillaGorilla](#): > > > [@missred](#): > > > > Theft. How would it not be? > > > > I view it a bit like the speeding illustration used above, but it’s still theft. You’re using my (hypothetical songwriter) intellectual property without compensating me. As the owner of copyrighted material, you’re screwing me financially. That’s theft. > > If I steal your car, then you will have actually lost something, that is, the car you had is no longer there, and you can’t use it anymore. > If I illegaly copy a song, then the owner of the IP does indeed not get paid, but the song is still there for him/her to sell again and again. > > It might not be moral to download/copy stuff illegaly, but it is certainly not theft. If I hire you to cut my grass then refuse to pay you for your service, is that theft? If I hire you to write a process for me then skip out when payday rolls around, is that theft? If you contract my radio station to run your ad six times, it airs six times and you only cut me a check for one time, is that theft? Perhaps we have a different definition of theft, but when you don’t pay for services rendered or intellectual property, in my ethics, you have committed theft. ::steps down from soapbox:: ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/58 "2010-09-24T21:26:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@Blackberry](#): > > > > Unless the wage worker gets commission, which seems unlikely for someone selling computer games, I don’t see how it’s dicking them over. > > > > On another note, here’s a fun one: Say you had a CD that you purchased legally, but then some asshole stole it from you, so you downloaded it again from a file sharing program. Is that still wrong? Or what if you still have the CD, but you’re trying to make a mix CD and you figure it would be easier to just Limewire a song instead of track down and rip it from your CD? > > > > (These have both happened to me, but then again I download music I never purchased at all too, so I’m not using it as a personal justification.) > > I think is pretty much the whole issue. When I take something that doesn’t belong to me, it’s harmless. But when somebody else takes something that belongs to me, that asshole stole it. > > (And I include the record companies in this. They have no problem with ripping people off. They just hate it when somebody rips them off.) Well, for me personally, I was mad because people broke the window of my car (for the THIRD TIME in a year) and stole my CDs. If they’d just stolen some burnt CDs of mine without damaging any other property, my thoughts towards them wouldn’t be nearly the same. And if I was crazy rich to begin with, and someone copied some intellectual property of mine with a sale price of a few dollars…I can’t see really caring (and certainly not trying to take some moral stance about it if I was a criminal to begin with). I don’t care where it falls on Kohlberg’s Stages of Moral Development or whatever scale you want to use; I see a big difference between ripping off an individual person who will feel personally violated and likely hurt economically, and ripping off some faceless, obscenely rich corporation. That’s not to say I advocate shoplifting or something, because I don’t. But I can’t see pirating music by some superstar as anything like directly damaging an individual person’s property. Like **Der Trihs** said, they still HAVE the property in question. That IS a difference. We just have better technology now. When I was little I would try to tape songs off the radio but that sucked. There was no big controversy over that, because it was clearly inferior to the real thing. Well, now it’s not. Such is life. I wouldn’t dream of stealing someone’s tangible property. And I don’t feel the tiniest bit guilty about downloading music from Limewire. If some superstar doesn’t like it, then cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2010, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/59 "2010-09-25T05:32:47Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > > [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > > > Meh. Who cares? And I don’t see how it’s theft as he got & returned them from the _library_. No one is out either money or product. If he had bought them from a store, copied them, then returned them, yes that would be theft. > > How do you believe no one is out money or product? If he had purchased them, the record company and the artist would both have received a cut (plus, the distribution company - Apple, Napster, whoever). Plenty of people are out money when you do this. Why would he have purchased them? He got them from the library. I read books I get from the library as well instead of buying them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2010, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418/60 "2010-09-25T05:38:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s like if there’s a movie theatre and you sneak in and watch the movie without buying a ticket. You’re stealing. And if someone reads a newspaper over my shoulder or I let them read it after me, is that theft? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-finding-out/554418.md?page=4)