# How would you respond to the trolley problem? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2024, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430 "2024-06-03T10:44:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/243 "2024-06-11T13:37:35Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > And if breakfast is the morning meal, and I’m still thinking about it when noon rolls around… I have successfully not made a decision, and with respect to what I will have for breakfast on that day, there is nothing I can do to ever make a decision. > > This isn’t me just being pedantic, either: part of human morality is that we are often compelled to evaluate situations in a time sensitive matter. We don’t have all day to weigh the pros and cons. We don’t even have all morning. Sometimes, we don’t have time to think at all. We either react… or we don’t. But if we don’t react (and, heck, sometimes even if we _do_ react) that doesn’t necessarily mean we arrived at that outcome by decision. I disagree with all this analysis. In the trivial case of breakfast, if you reach noon without eating breakfast, it’s not because you’ve failed to make a decision. It’s because you’ve consciously decided to do other things. There’s no “don’t make a decision” for folks who are aware. I do agree that it’s not pedantic–but that’s because you don’t “not react.” When you’re aware of a situation, whatever you do is a reaction. If you freeze, that’s your reaction. If you turn away, that’s your reaction. If you help out, that’s your reaction. Falsely classifying some reactions as actions and others as lack of actions lets people off the hook in a way that’s not appropriate. > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > So, again, you tell me you’d throw the switch? I don’t believe you. > > You say you wouldn’t throw the switch? I don’t believe you. Fortunately I’m not telling you either of these things; and I’m honestly not even sure what the best answer _should_ be. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/244 "2024-06-11T16:28:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I do agree that it’s not pedantic–but that’s because you don’t “not react.” When you’re aware of a situation, whatever you do is a reaction. If you freeze, that’s your reaction. If you turn away, that’s your reaction. If you help out, that’s your reaction. Falsely classifying some reactions as actions and others as lack of actions lets people off the hook in a way that’s not appropriate. Yeah, but what of it, more or less. I think the response that the scenario is so contrived and ridiculous, we’re going to do everything to avoid this sort of thing happening, have failsafes, train people, that the scenario of an untrained person being asked to make this sort of decision, we don’t care because it’s not our top priority. The trolley problem occurring at all is a bigger deal than what action a person takes. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/245 "2024-06-11T16:41:14Z")
The Trolley Problem is relevant to every decision we have to make at the last second to between undesirable outcomes. We can choose not to act, or fail to act sometimes, or act in the manner that is least detrimental to some or all. Most real life situations provide an easy choice, or one that doesn’t matter much. There are real life situations where brakes on cars and trucks fail, where a pedestrian steps into traffic, where you have to choose between the desires of a spouse, parent, and/or child. Sometimes a business has to cut staff and some will be greatly affected by the loss of their job. In real life we have to decide whether to buy one house or the other, or one car or the other and the choice could have a major financial or other impact on our lives. The most difficult choices we are likely to face involve accepting great benefit or detriment to ourselves or putting it on others. Our decisions in life should be preparation for the worst of circumstances that could include Trolley Problem level choices to make. Even then, in the worst cases where there is no time left any of us might not be able to choose quickly enough to act. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/246 "2024-06-11T16:47:19Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > The author of the above scenario then went on to insist that this formation of the trolley problem is morally indistinguishable for the classic formulation, of throwing a switch to send the trolley go one way or another: kill five by not acting, or kill one by acting. > > But that’s such obvious nonsense. Of course it’s not the same. And to the extent it’s not, it’s because–for as terrible and fat-shaming as the language in the [author’s undiluted formulation of the] problem is–it’s actually as much better scenario. Because it gives us some helpful information as to how the possible victims ended up there. > > The construction workers, we might reasonably infer, understood that they would be working on trolley tracks that day. Presumably, they or their employer had the option to take precautions that would have ensured no trolley ended up on that part of the tracks during their work. And yet, whether they failed or their employer failed, adequate precautions have not been taken. But at the very least, all the workers on the track had it in their comprehension that they would be working on trolley tracks, where trolleys may be expected to transit, and that a failure to take adequate precautions could lead to their deaths. > > By contrast, the heavyset gentleman (as I have labeled him–again, avoiding as best I can the fat-shaming language of the original problem), is just some bystander on a bridge. He surely had no comprehension that merely by standing on a bridge he might be thrown down to derail a trolley. Who would ever imagine such an absurdity? So that’s at very good ethical argument. No dispute from me (I mean I might disagree somewhat about the workers on the tracks, but in broad strokes I’d agree). And its the product of someone posing the trolley problem. So yeah that’s the use of the trolley problem. As shown by what you just wrote it’s a useful thought experiment to get people to think about ethics. Its not something we should be teach trolley car operators and it’s not the be all and end all of the study of ethics. But its a perfectly good thought experiment. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/247 "2024-06-11T17:21:39Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > And if breakfast is the morning meal, and I’m still thinking about it when noon rolls around… I have successfully not made a decision, and with respect to what I will have for breakfast on that day, there is nothing I can do to ever make a decision Unless you know that without fail your husband makes you waffles at 8am sharp unless you tell him you want something else. Then by doing nothing you are 100% choosing waffles. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/248 "2024-06-11T18:10:08Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > we can at least appreciate that soldiers in Iraq at the time would have understood that being blown up was a possibility. It was in their comprehension Though that is not at all the reason most people would consider blowing up a bus full of solders more ethical than bus full of hospital patients. It has nothing to with agency or understanding the risks. Most people would still consider it ethical if it was Iraqi conscripts who have no agency at all, or if it soldiers involved had been convinced by their supervisors that the enemy was defeated and there was no risk of attack. The reason most people would consider it a more ethical act is because they are combatants in a war and as a society we have a different set of ethical codes during wartime. All of which we are considering because of the trolley problem You are effectively suggesting an alternate problem where it’s a cruise missile instead of a trolley and there are a bus full of hospital patients in option A and soldiers in option B. In that one most people say “yes I’d pull the level controlling the cruise missile, so that it hits the soldiers”, which says something about our ethical systems. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/249 "2024-06-11T20:43:44Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > You tell me you have no idea what you’d do… I think I might just agree with you. I certainly don’t have any idea how _I’d_ respond in such a contrived and ridiculous scenario. > > Because, again, the trolley problem is so far removed from the human experience that I simply cannot conceive of how I would–or even should–respond. Good points. I concur. > [@TriPolar](#): > > The Trolley Problem is relevant to every decision we have to make at the last second to between undesirable outcomes. I disagree. The Trolley Problem is complete and totally non-relevant to any real world issues. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/250 "2024-06-11T22:59:11Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > the trolley problem is so far removed from the human experience that I simply cannot conceive of how I would–or even should–respond. > [@Jay\_Z](#): > > The trolley problem occurring at all is a bigger deal than what action a person takes. > [@DrDeth](#): > > The Trolley Problem is complete and totally non-relevant to any real world issues. Would you prefer a more abstract question, like “ **How would you decide between taking an action that would result in the death of one innocent person, and not taking that action, which would result in the deaths of multiple other innocent people?** ” Or even more generally: **Would/could/should you decide to take an action that would lead to harm if _not_ taking that action would lead to objectively greater harm—and you don’t have time to think it over or gather more information?** The basic trolley problem, it seems to me, takes that general question and puts it into a simple narrative context. Are your answers to the abstract question and to the trolley problem the same? If not, why not? Human beings respond differently to abstract questions than to the “same” questions placed within a human context. Consider, for example, the different formulations of the [Wason selection task](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wason_selection_task) (testing a rule like “If a card has an even number on one side, it must be blue on the other side” vs. a rule like “If a person is drinking alcohol, they must be over age”). ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/251 "2024-06-11T23:35:13Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Would you prefer a more abstract question, like “ **How would you decide between taking an action that would result in the death of one innocent person, and not taking that action, which would result in the deaths of multiple other innocent people?** ” No. Because I am not convinced human morality is conducive to simple abstraction. When the topic is morality, I prefer less abstraction, not more. The less divorced from reality, the better. Human morality does not exist on an ideal plain, it exists in nature. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/252 "2024-06-11T23:37:47Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Would you prefer a more abstract question, like “ **How would you decide between taking an action that would result in the death of one innocent person, and not taking that action, which would result in the deaths of multiple other innocent people?** ” No. Since I dont have to make that decision. And like many people- the “decision” would be based upon virtue signalling, not real life decisions. > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > No. Because I am not convinced human morality is conducive to simple abstraction. Right. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/253 "2024-06-12T04:31:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@TriPolar](#): > > > > The Trolley Problem is relevant to every decision we have to make at the last second to between undesirable outcomes. > > I disagree. The Trolley Problem is complete and totally non-relevant to any real world issues. Seems unlikely since we aren’t calling it The Happy Trolley Story. People do make decisions in real life, thus it is relevant to any decision made. If you don’t care about it’s relevance for some reason or another is a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/254 "2024-06-12T11:53:03Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The Happy Trolley Story You’re on a trolley, throwing cash to those you pass by. On your current track, you’ll pass by ten orphans. But you see that if you quickly switch tracks, you’ll pass by fifty orphans. Do you switch? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/255 "2024-06-12T12:22:20Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > _not_ taking that action would lead to objectively greater harm The whole disagreement many have is that there’s no “objectively” about it. Me, I don’t care about that aspect - my own solution to the problem is to toss a coin - but I can see what those people mean, in the “save 5 future Hitlers by killing one future Salk” sense. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/256 "2024-06-14T08:23:48Z")
A serial killer has kidnapped five Dopers. He presents them with the trolley problem, and tells them that if they can all answer the dilemma as presented, they all go free, but if even one of them argues the hypothetical, he will kill them all. Question: should each Doper get their own _In Memorium_ thread, or would it be acceptable to do one thread for all five? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/257 "2024-06-14T08:25:30Z")
You mean like an omnibus trolley thread? ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/258 "2024-06-14T11:09:43Z")
The goal of the trolley problem is to explore the ethical dilemma of choosing between two harmful outcomes, typically sacrificing one life to save many, thereby examining utilitarian principles and moral responsibility. It’s not about finding ways to change the scenario or outcome. Einstein’s _“riding a light beam”_ thought experiment aimed to explore the nature of light and the implications of Maxwell’s equations on time and space, leading to the theory of special relativity. It questioned how light would appear to someone traveling at light speed, highlighting inconsistencies in classical physics. It wasn’t about arguing the impossibility of traveling at light speed or anything else. Fighting the hypothetical may be fun and clever, but it doesn’t really tell us much of interest. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/259 "2024-06-14T11:44:44Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > Fighting the hypothetical may be fun and clever, but it doesn’t really tell us much of interest. Just like _not_ fighting the hypothetical. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/260 "2024-06-14T11:57:19Z")
Yeah, well if we fought Einstein’s and Schrödinger’s brain teasers, we’d all be stumbling around in the dark with a bunch of zombie cats! 🧟‍♂️🙀 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/261 "2024-06-14T12:41:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > > > You tell me you have no idea what you’d do… I think I might just agree with you. I certainly don’t have any idea how _I’d_ respond in such a contrived and ridiculous scenario. > > > > Because, again, the trolley problem is so far removed from the human experience that I simply cannot conceive of how I would–or even should–respond. > > Good points. I concur. > > > [@TriPolar](#): > > > > The Trolley Problem is relevant to every decision we have to make at the last second to between undesirable outcomes. > > I disagree. The Trolley Problem is complete and totally non-relevant to any real world issues. I’m not sure why you think it’s not relevant to any real world issues. Particularly in jobs that deal with life and death. Think of a fire chief trying to decide to send a team into a burning building to rescue someone. It’s not as absolute as the trolley problem as there are degrees of risk (no pun intended). How definite is it that someone is still inside? How far along is the fire and how likely is the building to collapse with everyone inside? ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430/262 "2024-06-14T18:09:58Z")
Posted on McSweeney’s today: > **[Trolley Problem Variations for Dads](https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/trolley-problem-variations-for-dads)** > > A trolley is about to run over five people, but your dad gets distracted by a nearby sports bar playing The Shawshank Redemption on one of their ou... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-the-trolley-problem/1002430.md?page=14)