# How would you respond to this high school student's question re torture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-this-high-school-students-question-re-torture/496830 "2009-05-18T06:19:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-this-high-school-students-question-re-torture/496830/101 "2009-05-22T13:26:47Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > You won’t even admit one successful use of torture, will you, even if it flies in the face of all the historical evidence? Why is it so difficult to imagine that the poor victim broke and gave up the goods? Because that’s not how it works. And because I see no reason to trust a historical record written by monsters trying to justify their monstrous acts. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-this-high-school-students-question-re-torture/496830/102 "2009-05-22T13:45:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Or more likely that the “information” he got from torture was false. Just as modern torture supporters go on and on about all the supposed Evil Plots they’ve stopped with torture. Of course, all that’s really happening is they are trying to get away with indulging their sadism. If you know anything at all about Tudor England you will know that the plots against Elizabeth were very real indeed. But it’s pointless to argue this case when you dismiss all the historical records as worthless. On such a blank slate you can fashion history into whatever shape best suits with your philosophy, as indeed you seem to be doing. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-this-high-school-students-question-re-torture/496830/103 "2009-05-22T13:49:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because that’s not how it works. And because I see no reason to trust a historical record written by monsters trying to justify their monstrous acts. What’s not how it works? I find that rather baffling. Are you saying that people never break under torture and never tell the truth? And why should Elizabethan writers try to justify something which needed no justification at the time? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-this-high-school-students-question-re-torture/496830/104 "2009-05-22T13:49:59Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > If you know anything at all about Tudor England you will know that the plots against Elizabeth were very real indeed. And ? That doesn’t mean that any useful information came from torture. > [@aldiboronti](#): > > But it’s pointless to argue this case when you dismiss all the historical records as worthless. On such a blank slate you can fashion history into whatever shape best suits with your philosophy, as indeed you seem to be doing. Except that’s not what I said. I said that I didn’t accept the word of a torturer, or those that employed them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-this-high-school-students-question-re-torture/496830/105 "2009-05-22T13:53:37Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > What’s not how it works? I find that rather baffling. Are you saying that people never break under torture and never tell the truth? I’m saying that they break right away, and say anything at all that will stop the torture. And that even if the truth is spoken it will be buried under all the torture induced lies. And that the torturer won’t even care, because the point of torture is cruelty and the production of falsehoods. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-this-high-school-students-question-re-torture/496830/106 "2009-05-22T15:11:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’m saying that they break right away, and say anything at all that will stop the torture. And that even if the truth is spoken it will be buried under all the torture induced lies. And that the torturer won’t even care, because the point of torture is cruelty and the production of falsehoods. The point of torture is cruelty and the production of falsehoods? You’re clearly thinking of torture under the Communist regimes. Believe it or not (and is it really so hard to believe) some torturers are after specific hard facts and sometimes they get them. Would you like to deny that with another sweeping generalization? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-this-high-school-students-question-re-torture/496830/107 "2009-05-22T15:12:52Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > The point of torture is cruelty and the production of falsehoods? You’re clearly thinking of torture under the Communist regimes. And under ours. And every torturer’s regime. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-this-high-school-students-question-re-torture/496830/108 "2009-05-25T14:05:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Former VP Dick Cheney has requested the release of additional memos showing that torture and abuse saved American lives by preventing terrorist attacks. If the Obama administration decides to release these memos, then I suggest they also release statistics from Iraq showing the number of foreign fighters that were recruited because of our policy of torture and abuse. Above is the beginning of a [blog posting by Matthew Alexander](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matthew-alexander/if-were-going-to-reveal-m_b_204034.html), author of “How to Break a Terrorist”. Alexander led the interrogations that resulted in the capture of al Zarqawi. The point of his post is that while torture may at times be effective in eliciting the desired response, it is VERY EFFECTIVE in turning the local populace against us AND has, in Iraq, led to the deaths of many Americans. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-this-high-school-students-question-re-torture/496830/109 "2009-05-25T14:16:10Z")
I may have missed it, but nobody seems to have addressed the part where he asks why we should respect our governments rights to be secretive. In my own view, after already having screwed the pooch by allowing nuclear bomb technology out of the bag into the big wide world, they should have no really big secrets to keep.\* When we live in a world society that should ideally be moving towards openness and transparency of government, we are not setting very good examples to those countries at the extreme end of the secretive scale. - For instance if some secret R+D ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-this-high-school-students-question-re-torture/496830/110 "2009-05-25T14:23:23Z")
_Gnashingfrashingdashingcrappyeditingfunction!_ - For instance if some secret R+D branch was developing some super weapon that could kill specific races, are they entitled to peace and quiet while they do it? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-this-high-school-students-question-re-torture/496830/111 "2009-05-25T16:40:57Z")
Because the means do not justify the ends and regimes that did not object to any means to obtain their ends are in the shitpile of history. Does anyone have any good opinion of regimes which used torture? Whether it produced results or not is irrelevant. History will judge America harshly. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-this-high-school-students-question-re-torture/496830/112 "2009-05-25T17:01:07Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > In my own view, after already having screwed the pooch by allowing nuclear bomb technology out of the bag into the big wide world, they should have no really big secrets to keep. It’s funny because he thinks keeping the rest of the world from developing nukes was possible indefinitely. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-this-high-school-students-question-re-torture/496830/113 "2009-05-25T18:07:07Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I may have missed it, but nobody seems to have addressed the part where he asks why we should respect our governments rights to be secretive. > > In my own view, after already having screwed the pooch by allowing nuclear bomb technology out of the bag into the big wide world, they should have no really big secrets to keep.\* > > When we live in a world society that should ideally be moving towards openness and transparency of government, we are not setting very good examples to those countries at the extreme end of the secretive scale. > > - For instance if some secret R+D I addressed it. IMO bringing things out in the open is part of striking the balance between security and potential abuse of power. We won’t always be right and there are things that should not be revealed but neither can we blindly accept our leaders cry of national security every time they want to hide something from us. I also gave the homework assignment of the Pentagon Papers and the Nixon presidency. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-respond-to-this-high-school-students-question-re-torture/496830.md?page=5)