# How would you tell a devout student that the Bible is not a valid citation for historical claims? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 24, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229 "2015-12-24T01:18:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/21 "2015-12-24T20:22:53Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > Depending in part upon what you mean by “the Bible,” your comment is simply inaccurate. What do _you_ mean when you say “the Bible”? ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/22 "2015-12-24T20:26:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What do _you_ mean when you say “the Bible”? Usually the Tanakh, otherwise I typically say the “Christian Bible” or, depending on what’s being discussed, the “New Testament.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/23 "2015-12-24T20:30:49Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > Usually the Tanakh, otherwise I typically say the “Christian Bible” or, depending on what’s being discussed, the “New Testament.” Do you think the Old Testament is a pretty good historical document? ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/24 "2015-12-24T20:45:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you think the Old Testament is a pretty good historical document? Pretty good historical document? No, but I do think that it’s an important historical tool partly because much of it is folk etiology suborned to a theological agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/25 "2015-12-24T20:49:52Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > Pretty good historical document? No, but I do think that it’s an important historical tool partly because much of it is folk etiology suborned to a theological agenda. I can see your point…but what makes the Christian New Testament not worthy of the same assessment, in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/26 "2015-12-24T20:55:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I can see your point…but what makes the Christian New Testament not worthy of the same assessment, in your opinion? It may be, at least the “historical” Acts may be. I’m simply less acquainted with the NT. At the same time, I would suggest that the combination of Paul, Acts, and Josephus is sufficient to warrant the presumption of a historical Jesus. Sorry, but I need to go offline now. Perhaps we can pursue this at some later lime. L’Shalom … ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/27 "2015-12-24T20:57:11Z")
Peace. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/28 "2015-12-24T21:25:56Z")
I asked my wife the medieval historian what she would do. She said: “If any of my students wanted to use the Bible as a historical source (rather than a cultural one) I would ask them to justify their cite by displaying a knowledge of the transmission history of the cited passage. When was the passage written according to Biblical scholars? What was the cultural context of its creation? How has interpretation of the passage varied through time?” ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/29 "2015-12-24T21:32:11Z")
Point out that the Bible claims that the city of Jericho was destroyed, forever. Then, show them a webcam link to modern, downtown Jericho. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/30 "2015-12-24T21:48:37Z")
Call the ACLU first and warn them you might be fired soon. Tell the student the bible is a work of fiction and give him an F unless he cites a real source. Dare your employers to fire you. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/31 "2015-12-25T00:52:27Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > I’m not sure that argument quite works, since the Bible _is_ primary source material, and would be a perfectly legitimate source for certain types of historical arguments. Depends on what part of the Bible you’re talking about. Someone may claim that Moses wrote the stuff about Exodus, for example, which would be a primary source, but Luke is obviously a secondary source, even according to church doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/32 "2015-12-25T01:25:37Z")
If they can use Bible/Old Testament pop-culture, then my answer is: “Say, brainless, don’t you know where Science comes from?” [pulls out a National Geographic magazine] "Look-it here, from Florida, Canada, and Washington DC too! Never saw it? 'Course you never. This is just for us Explorers. It just so happens I’ve been Nominated for Membership…! I’m going out Exploring some day… just you watch!!!" Merry Christmas, Mary… ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/33 "2015-12-25T01:48:56Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Point out that the Bible claims that the city of Jericho was destroyed, forever. > > Then, show them a webcam link to modern, downtown Jericho. I tried that. It was in the 1980’s. The Bible said that the city of Tyre was destroyed, and no more than a place where fishermen spread their nets. I showed my fundamentalist friend a photo of modern Tyre, with high-rise office and hotel buildings. He said that was a lie. (I do not want to tar all believers with this one person’s idiocy. But when someone is that big an idiot, photographic proof won’t do an atom of good.) ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/34 "2015-12-25T01:54:34Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I would say, “The Bible is not a valid citation for historical claims.” This. If he wanted to argue that such-and-such scholars found it to be historically accurate, invite him to use those scholars’ works as his primary sources rather than the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/35 "2015-12-25T02:10:57Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I tried that. It was in the 1980’s. The Bible said that the city of Tyre was destroyed, God blew up Tyre? Or was it just flattened? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/36 "2015-12-25T02:11:33Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > > [@Frank](#): > > > > I would say, “The Bible is not **a valid citation** for historical claims.” > > This. If he wanted to argue that such-and-such scholars found it to be historically accurate, invite him to use those scholars’ works as his **primary sources** rather than the Bible. ^ It’s called moving the goalpost. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/37 "2015-12-26T00:21:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What do _you_ mean when you say “the Bible”? I think that there are only two works of literature that are called “the Bible”; one is The Holy Bible (Christian, w/the OT and NT) and, IIRC, the other is whatever is encompassed in what the Jewish religion calls the Bible. I don’t think that you will find any other religion that calls their canon “the Bible”, at least in English. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/38 "2015-12-26T00:26:21Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > If they can use Bible/Old Testament pop-culture, then my answer is: > > “Say, brainless, don’t you know where Science comes from?” > [pulls out a National Geographic magazine] > > "Look-it here, from Florida, Canada, and Washington DC too! > Never saw it? 'Course you never. This is just for us Explorers. It just so happens I’ve been Nominated for Membership…! > > I’m going out Exploring some day… just you watch!!!" > Merry Christmas, Mary… You would have to repeat that into their good ear. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/39 "2015-12-26T11:28:33Z")
I think that the Bible can teach us about the way people led their live in ln the lands of the Bible but as a historical document no. The Bible is a library that over the years has been censored, the OT is incomplete, only 25% of available scripture has been used in the NT. Mary Magdalene who I believe to be a true apostle of Jesus is relegated to a volunteer by one of the early Pope’s. Why does Paul who never met Jesus take up such a large portion of the NT. when Thomas who knew Jesus and was also a family friend and also was the author of his Gospel of Thomas, why was this gospel omitted from the NT. The present Bible is to incomplete to be a historical document ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229/40 "2015-12-26T11:47:55Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > Why does Paul who never met Jesus take up such a large portion of the NT. Because the Christian religion is largely the creation of Paul. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-would-you-tell-a-devout-student-that-the-bible-is-not-a-valid-citation-for-historical-claims/741229.md?page=3)