# How you treat the strong speaks more of your character than how you treat the poor **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850 "2005-10-19T02:29:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/1 "2005-10-19T02:29:01Z")
I’ve believed this for many years, so that when I read in the Bible that we should not show partiality to the poor or favouritism to the great\*, it rang true for me. I felt I was equally in danger, through pride, of trying to prove my credentials as a “friend of the oppressed” as of wanting to get noticed and spoken well of by influential people, people with money and clout. Daniel Goldhagen in his well known, though not very well written, PhD thesis turned book writes powerfully of the dangers of assuming a moral position and in particular of the ambiguities of making its own life’s task to change others: ‘Liberals continued to defend Jews in the first half of the nineteenth century on the ominous basis of affirming the Jews’ capacity for moral and social regeneration … Their hope was to humanize the Jews, to revolutionize the Jews’ nature. Their support for Jewish rights and defense of Jews were therefore of bad faith. “We will defend you, so long as you stop being yourselves” was their essential message.’ (page 58 of _Hitler’s Willing Executioners_) This patronising attitude, which like all prejudice tells us much more about the one holding the prejudice than the one being prejudiced against, testifies to the liberals’ conception of the harmful nature of the Jews qua Jews, and thus to their (the liberals) intolerance and arrogance (and, indeed, to their illiberalism). Is this attitude not still the fuel behind much of the talk, and, to a lesser extent (because there’s less of it), action of today’s liberals? - Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favouritism to the great, but judge your neighbour fairly. (Leviticus 19:15) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/2 "2005-10-19T02:45:38Z")
That same attitude was once called “the white man’s burden”. The argument was that we had to conquer, colonize, and “civilize” foreign countries “for their own good”. We had to make them more like us (while simultanously exploiting them). “We will defend you, so long as you stop being yourselves” was their essential message.’ This has a mirror image - in that if you don’t stop acting “that way”, anything bad that happens is your own fault. We still see it today. Today’s liberals, if taken as politics, does not demand that everyone be the same or demand that they change who they are. If anything, it goes the other way. Diversity is one of the buzz words. Making everyone the same seems these days to be more of a conservative idea. Everyone has to be a good christian (evangelical only - Catholics are not christian acording to SOME people), a good right winger, a good American (as defined by the administration). Democrats should be more like Republicans if they want to win (win what?). Gays should stop swishing and sashaying (I can’t swish or sashay worth a damn but there ya go). Blacks should “act white”. Etc, etc etc. Back to the way we act towards people more powerful and less powerful. Anyone can be nice to the man with the money and the power. At it’s extreme, it’s called kissing ass. It’s easy to be nice to someone who can give you something. The test is how you treat those who have nothing to offer - the dirt poor. We’ve all seen people who are very proper and polite to the “upper crust” and then look down their noses at those “of lower station”. We call them snobs. It isn’t about patronizing, it’s about simple respect. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/3 "2005-10-19T04:04:08Z")
Not show favortism to the rich is probably just a statement of not to overlook their evil acts because they have money and power. We are all human and all have value irrelelvant of income or status. I have not met liberals who want to end diversity in the way you are referring to it. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it, but I’m sure it exists. Maybe my definition and experience with liberals is different than yours since I am from the midwest. That sounds more like a conservative notion “Sure gay men can get married as long as they marry women and not other men” “Sure latinos can live in the US as long as they speak our language” “Sure you can have immorality on TV as long as it doesn’t go too far” These are just as patrionising and only allow acceptance on condition of conformity. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/4 "2005-10-19T05:02:55Z")
I can’t speak for the Great Liberal Monolith. But as a liberal myself, I can tell you that my political philosophy is very, very far from the “white man’s burden” model of the OP. The basis of my fundamental political philosophy is that each of us only has a limited amount of time on this planet, and therefore each of us should be accorded equal access to opportunities and choices regarding how we will try to be happy during that time. What makes me a liberal, I guess, is that I acknowledge the practical reality of economic and political obstacles to those opportunities just as much as I acknowledge the physical and legal obstacles; that economic and social coercion can have as much effect on a person’s life as legal and physical coercion. Anyway, I went a bit far afield there, trying to define my politics, but I don’t really see the patronizing aspect of the OP’s liberalism in my political model. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/5 "2005-10-19T06:16:59Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > …I read in the Bible that we should not show partiality to the poor or favouritism to the great\* \ > > - Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favouritism to the great, but judge your neighbour fairly. (Leviticus 19:15) I don’t think you’re getting the right message from this Bible quote. It doesn’t mean “don’t help the poor” or “don’t be a friend to the oppressed”, it’s talking of equality in a court scenario. Other versions have the quote as something more like “Thou shalt do no unrighteousness in judgment”, or speak of “injustice in judgment”, or even “Judge your neighbour fairly”. It doesn’t affect the clear obligation to do good to those in need, as expressed in Matthew 25’s Parable of the Sheep and the Goats: > [@](#): > > 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: > > 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: > > 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. > > 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? > > 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? > > 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? > > 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me. I also disagree with the thesis of this Goldhagen, at least as it is currently expressed. Affirming the equality of the Jews and rejecting the insults towards their morality does not, in itself, undermine their Jewishness and is no affront. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/6 "2005-10-19T07:28:34Z")
Sympathy is patronizing. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/7 "2005-10-19T07:55:42Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > Sympathy is patronizing. jesus was a liberal ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/8 "2005-10-19T10:02:46Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > jesus was a liberal and a conservative simultaneously. Fully Liberal and Fully Conservative, two natures, one person, without confusion. Yay for Chalcedon! ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/9 "2005-10-19T10:19:01Z")
Yes, we shouldn’t patronize, and diversity is a good thing. So far, so good. But there isn’t much of a debate here, unless you contrast this argument with other arguments. For instance, is it patronizing that the World Banks demands of African nations that they alter their national finances if they want aid and loans? Realistically, I’d say yes. A true liberal stance here, and a proven effective one to boot, would be to stop “aiding” African governments, and give out [microcredits](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcredit) instead at a low, but realistic, interest-rate. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/10 "2005-10-19T10:55:03Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > jesus was a liberal Have you actually read the Bible? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/11 "2005-10-19T15:38:28Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > Have you actually read the Bible? yep. Feed the poor, care for the sick, judge not lest ye be judged, let he who is without sin cast the first stone, go forth and sin no more, father forgive them they know not what they do. That Jesus guy was 100% liberal in every way that mattered. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/12 "2005-10-19T15:40:18Z")
sorry about the double post, but I missed a few. Blessed are the peacemakers, blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are the meek and humble, blessed are the merciful. 100% Liberal. Yep. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/13 "2005-10-19T16:49:28Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > jesus was a liberal Well, he was certianly a Jew. ;j Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/14 "2005-10-19T16:56:23Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > 'Liberals continued to defend Jews in the first half of the nineteenth century on the ominous basis of …\*) I think the pronblem here is some confusion about what the term “Liberals” refers to in your quote. People who were referrred to as “Liberals” in the first half of the nineteenth century (probably in Europe, as the book seems to be about European issues), do not necessarily speak for the 21st-century American liberals you seem to be addressing with your post. Not any more than the Liberal party in Britain speaks for them – it’s the same word, but in a political or wordlview context means something different. Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/15 "2005-10-19T19:51:41Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > yep. Feed the poor, care for the sick, judge not lest ye be judged, let he who is without sin cast the first stone, go forth and sin no more, father forgive them they know not what they do. > > That Jesus guy was 100% liberal in every way that mattered. I bring not peace but a sword. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/16 "2005-10-20T05:35:51Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > I bring not peace but a sword. The other messiahs were in the National Guard while Jesus was “Onward Christian Soldiering”, but Jesus later had to put up with the “Apostles for Truth” smear campaign. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/17 "2005-10-20T06:37:07Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > Not show favoritism to the rich is probably just a statement of not to overlook their evil acts because they have money and power. Assuredly, but the really interesting part of the command is to show no partiality to the poor. This injunction seems more relvant than ever at a time when poor people are sometimes treated as if they had no moral powers. It’s a short step from saying someone needs help re-interpreting what they know or believe to saying they need help in using their moral compass. The text functions to remind us, following Kant, that we should always recognise that human individuals are ends, and should not be used as mere means to our ends. I can think of no other thought which has been so powerful in the moral development of human beings. Re liberals (however defined - it doesn’t much matter), as Gramsci noted, the supremacy of a social group manifests itself in two ways, as “domination” and as “intellectual and moral leadership”. Such supremacy, or social power abuse, when it takes the form of a legally or morally illegitimate exercise of control over others in one’s own interests, often results in social inequality. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/18 "2005-10-20T13:38:53Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > This injunction seems more relvant than ever at a time when poor people are sometimes treated as if they had no moral powers. It’s a short step from saying someone needs help re-interpreting what they know or believe to saying they need help in using their moral compass. And, you blame this on liberals? I don’t know what planet you live on, but on my planet it is mainly the conservatives who talk about the poor as lacking moral values…that they are poor because they have a bad work ethic, have kids out of wedlock, have become too reliant on government handouts, etc. It is the liberals who talk about the fact that there are still structural features of our economy and society that prevent the poor from breaking out of the cycle of poverty. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/19 "2005-10-20T14:11:04Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > I bring not peace but a sword. I never knew Jesus got mugged. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850/20 "2005-10-20T22:36:03Z")
Roger, your posts in this thread come off (to me) as if you’re starting out with a conclusion and trying to organize your evidence after the fact, in order to meet a specific agenda. For what it’s worth, the motivations you attribute to liberals do not sound familiar to me, as regards my own motivations or those of any of my liberal friends. I believe you have a drawing board in your immediate future. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-you-treat-the-strong-speaks-more-of-your-character-than-how-you-treat-the-poor/326850.md?page=2)