How you treat the strong speaks more of your character than how you treat the poor

I’m a liberal, and I’ll punch the man who says I’m not.

I like to give everyone I meet an equal amount of respect, which makes me popular with people like waiters and shop assistants who are used to being treated as a lower form of life, but the same approach makes me unpopular with senior management, who often demand rim-licking sycophancy from their underlings.

Kurt Vonnegut had a theory about successful conservatives. He said that they understood that there were only limited resources and opportunities available, and that they would like a greater than average share of these. In order to achieve that, someone has to lose out, i.e. social Darwinism in practice.

IMHO, liberals are humanitarian idealists; conservatives are self-serving pragmatists.

I think you’re overestimating the difference between libs/radicals and conservatives in throwing their theories out of the window when opportunity knocks. The disparity between theory and practice for us all was nicely captured among others by Dostoyevsky in Brothers Karamazov, where he writes that it’s easy to “love” humanity, but hard to love the people you live and work with.

Positive discrimination is a good example of the modern tendency to ignore the Biblical injunction to show no partiality to the poor. Such treatment ultimately does no good to the patronised and the patroniser. Much of the modern conception of “equality” is underpinned by a hatred of superiority. Of course, where money or the chance to gain a high reputation is involved, we throw such tender considerations out of the window, as we see the chance to advance ourselves. And thus we tend to lurch between sentimentalising pseudo-responses (say, to the problems of Africa) and hard-assed go-getting.

Conservative or Liberal, it doesn’t really matter. The conservatives rationalize greed by adopting the belief that poor people deserve to be that way. The liberals rationalize greed by giving just enough to add weight to their claim that they aren’t greedy. The truth is that both sort of people are virtually identical. The motivations are the same. They desire to retain wealth while satisfying their conception of “right and wrong”. The liberal method of achieving such satiation serves to perpetuate the conservative method, and vice versa. Each attitude is fueled by the Opposition.

“Yes, I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.”

The growing disparity in the United States is one of economic inequality and a shrinking middle class.

Conservatives and liberals here generally seem to have an interest in “morals.” Conservatives are more likely to seek positions of “moral leadership” and the power to control the private moral decisions of others for what they consider to be the good of society. Liberals promote and protect individual civil and human rights.

“Intellectual and moral leadership” don’t always go hand in hand; I guess it would depend on your point of view about what is moral.

No, that is not true for “all of us.” That is true for Dostoyevsky and some of us some of the time.

I’m not at all sure what you mean when you write the word superiority.

Sp. Homo sapiens isn’t entirely Christian, and so Biblical injunctions don’t universally apply. Damn good job too, otherwise people could be excecuted for being gay, having sex with another man’s female slave, having sex with your wife during her period, masturbating, playing with ouija boards, and so on. Taking the rest of the utterly bugfuck Leviticus book into account, I think it’s maybe not best to take your moral guidance from it, eh rog?

If you don’t think positive discrimination is a good thing, then maybe one day you need to find yourself in a situation when life has hot rock bottom and you need a helping hand to recover yourself and once again make a positive contribution to society. Whether you get this helping hand would depend where you live. I’d much rather take my chances in a liberal society with a developed welfare state (say Sweden or Denmark) than a society that practices a more ruthless* form of social Darwinism (say the US). Get poor in the US, and the chances are you’ll stay poor. Not opinion, just statistics.

*Ruth is from the Bible, and was a very kind and compassionate woman. What would she think.

Fair enough - there’s just so much bull around that a corrective to the modern idea that you can make something true by saying/writing it often enough (as opposed to doing it) is necessary.

This is very much a CS Lewis theme (but one which I firmly believe in and really always have). His idea is that people have a tendency towards hatred of competence and ability in others (jealousy, really). His most telling application of this idea is to the way in England in the first half of this century (of course, it got worse not better) the schools tried to pretend that everyone was equal (equally gifted intellectually). His most potent point was that the group to whom this silly attitude was most unfair was the “thickies”, who would actually be far happier doing carpentry, metalwork, etc rather than having to continue to attend regular classes in say Latin, or music appreciation, for the sake of their “progressive” teachers. I hope that explains it better, and is sufficiently true to Lewis’s position.

The Whitbread prize-winning children’s writer Philip Pullman has dismissed his best-selling predecessor CS Lewis as “blatantly racist” and “monumentally disparaging of women” the notoriously liberal Guardian newspaper reports.

Roger, old bean, I really would be more discriminating about where you obtain your reference points in life. CS fucking Lewis and Leviticus are a good foundation for one twisted set of morals. If you want, I could selectively quote some Jesus to put a good case for devoting your entire life to self-sacrifice and charity.

With regard to “selectively quoting” bits of the Bible (or indeed any book - or media report, for that matter), it is important to do two related things when considering texts. First to consider them in context, and second to approach them with a desire to bring a ‘sympathetic understanding’ to them, that is, to put yourself in the place of the writer and to try and appreciate what he or she was trying to achieve through his or her writing. Understanding, for example, with regard to the Bible, that it wasn’t written in chapters ot verses (but that these were only added later) helps you to appreciate, if you keep your mind open, that one part of a book is connected to all other parts, with reference to what has gone before and anticiaptions of what is yet to come. It might be helpful to replace the word ‘verse’ with ‘extract’ or ‘text’. Most mature Christian thinkers (as opposed to TV evangelists or fundamentalists) would approach the Bible with the desire to understand truths or principles, rather than make monoliths of individual ‘verse’.

Regarding Pullman, I’m afraid I’m not familiar with his work smiled at the presuppositions he managed to work into his words on Christianity:

’When it was possible to have a belief about God and heaven, it represented something we all desired. It had a profound meaning in human life. But when it no longer became possible to believe, a lot of people felt despair.’

Subordinate clauses (introduced as here by ‘when’, or by other words such as ‘because’ or ‘if’) are prime means of introducing presuppositions into a text, and thereby establishing as common-sense or ‘given’ what is in fact merely opinion.

If Campbell or Mandelson retire, he has a career as a spin doctor with Tony Blair.

Roger, thanks for the clarification.

It’s difficult for me to believe that Lewis would generalize to that extent and in such a negative light. (I concede you are far better read in Lewis that I.) I would think just the opposite – that people admire competence and ability in others and wish to imitate it.

Let me preface the remainder of my comments by assuring you that as a teacher, I am very comfortable with acknowledging the differences in students and their abilities. But I might not be so quick in my sorting into two piles with easy labels. “Thickness” is a lot more complex than that. Each student is multi-layered. I would want to place students in classes in which they have an opportunity to learn and thrive. From what you have written, I would not have been happy with the school system that was described. (In America, it would not have been for the sake of their “‘progressive’ teachers.” Teachers here have little say in such decisions.)

I do not at all understand how this example of the English school system illustrates that “people have a tendency towards hatred of competence and ability in others.” Will you elaborate?

The Bible does not say that, in as many words. When you consider its context, it’s saying something quite different. The message you draw from your selective reading of the quote isn’t correct, as Jesus explicitly told his followers that the poor, and the disadvantaged generally, deserve extra help.

Any response to this, more fully explained in my longer post above?

Though I think I share with C.S Lewis the spirit of what he says about education and equality, I attributed to him some ideas which he didn’t have. Indeed, I got one detail (regarding compulsory subjects – see below) the wrong way round. So, with apologies all round, I summarise his ideas, as presented in his 1944 article ‘Democratic Education’.

His first paragraph is key, so I will quote it in full:

‘Democratic education, says Aristotle, ought to mean, not the education which democrats like, but the education which will preserve democracy. Until we have realized that the two things do not necessarily go together we cannot think clearly about education.’

He goes on to say that ‘an education which gave the able and diligent boys (sic) no advantage over the stupid and idle ones, would be in one sense democratic. It would be egalitarian and democrats like equality.’ Lewis notes that a movement towards ‘total egalitarianism’ in education (where everyone wins prizes) has begun to appear, apparent in the ‘growing demand that subjects which some boys do very much better than others should not be compulsory’ (he cites Latin and Maths). Arguing for the enemy, he says that since both these subjects give “an unfair advantage” to boys of a certain type, to abolish that advantage is in one sense democratic.

Lewis attacks this argument by saying that to be consistent all compulsory subjects must be abolished, and the curriculum must be made so wide that every boy will get a chance at something. Next he launches into his stuff on superiority. Again, I’ll quote him in full:

'Even the boy who can’t or won’t learn his alphabet can be praised and petted for something – handicrafts or gymnastics, moral leadership or deportment, citizenship or the care of guinea-pigs, “hobbies” or musical appreciation – anything he likes. Then no boy, and no boy’s parents, need feel inferior.

An education on those lines will be pleasing to democratic feelings. It will have repaired the inequalities of nature. But it is quite another question whether it will breed a democratic nation which can survive, or even one whose survival is desirable.’

Having commented that a nation thus educated is only likely to escape invasion and destruction if its enemies have adopted the same education system, Lewis moves on to the more interesting of desirability. His understanding of equality seems to me to be unparalleled.

‘The demand for equality has two sources; one of them is among the noblest, the other is the basest, of human emotions. The noble source is the desire for fair play. But the other source is the hatred of superiority. At the present moment it would be very unrealistic to overlook the importance of the latter. There is in all men a tendency (only corrigible by good training from without and persistent moral effort from within) to resent the existence of what is stronger, subtler or better than themselves…’

In the next paragraph he returns to his theme:

‘The kind of “democratic” education which is already looming ahead is bad because it endeavours to propitiate evil passions, to appease envy. There are two reasons for not attempting this. In the first place, you will not succeed. Envy is insatiable. The more you concede to it the more it will demand. No attitude of humility which you cam possibly adopt will propitiate a man with an inferiority complex. In the second place, you are trying to introduce equality where equality is fatal.’

Lewis then goes on to explain this by pointing out that outside mathematics equality is a purely social conception, applying to man as a political and economic animal. It has, though, ‘no place in the world of the mind’. He lists many things which are not democratic: beauty, virtue (‘achieved by those who pursue her more hotly than most men’), truth (‘demanding special industry and special talents’). He concludes: ‘Political democracy is doomed if it tries to extend its demand for equality into these higher spheres. Ethical, intellectual, or aesthetic democracy is death.’

Thus, with regard to education, ‘a truly democratic education – one which will preserve democracy – must be ruthlessly aristocratic, shamelessly “high-brow”. In drawing up its curriculum it should always have chiefly in view the interests of the boy who wants to know and can know’.

Regarding the ‘dull’ boy (my ‘thickie’), Lewis argues that it is the “aristocratic” system that really gives these children what they want. (It should be noted that Lewis draws on his teaching experience to note that 'with very few exceptions…the stupid boy is the boy who does not want to know.) They will ‘gravitate very comfortably to the bottom of the form’, sitting at the back of the room ‘occasionally ragging and occasionally getting punished, and all the time imbibing that playfully intransigent attitude to authority which is our chief protection against England’s becoming a servile state’.

The ‘dull’ boy gets a decent job (‘much better paid than the intellectual ones’), and enjoys the ‘priceless benefit’ of knowing he’s not clever. He will have a certain half-amused respect for the smart ones. ‘He will be a pillar of democracy’, allowing ‘just the right amount of rope to those clever ones’.

Patronise the boy by making woodwork an official subject and you will ‘fool the poor boy into the belief that what he is doing is just as clever “in its own way” as real work’. Why patronise and disadvantage him? Because 'when he gets out into the real world he is bound to discover the truth, and start to resent those inferiorities which, but for the modernising educator, ‘would not have irked him at all’.

He concludes: ‘Democracy demands that little men should not take big ones too seriously; it dies when it if full of little men who think they are big themselves.’

Atticus, even more radically, Jesus teaches us that the poor, the disadvantaged and the young are just as well placed to teach us as the lawyer, the churchman, the wealthy and the successful.

He also never patronises poor people, acknowleding that they are a fact of life, and reminding those with the fewest talents that they should use those to the fullest rather than brooding on their inferiorities and the unfair cards that life has dealt them.

That’s not what I took you up on. You can’t draw the conclusion that you did (the poor should not necessarily get special help) from the verse that you did, let alone the rest of the Gospels.

As for the points you give here, I agree with your first, but not your second. The Jesus shown in the Gospels was the epitome of the patron of the disadvantaged, although I’ll grant you that his attitude was not insincerely ‘patronising’ in the modern sense. He handed out food to the hungry, healed the sick and advised helping the poor. He told the world that these things were the key to heaven, and that those that failed to do these things would be judged poorly by God, in the Matthew 25 excerpt I provide.

Roger, trying to define a set of moral standards from CS Lewis and Leviticus is just plain twisted. As Atticus Finch pointed out, you’d be better off following the teachings of Jesus. He wasn’t such a bad chap, and a lot of what he had to say is still relevant.

I’m curious as to exactly why the OP was posted. It seems that Roger’s mind is firmly made up on the subject, and is just seeking some validation and rationalisation for his views. From the replies (my piss-and-vinegar notwithstanding), I’d say that the consensus is that it’s a good thing to help those less fortunate than yourselves, whether one is conservative of liberal, religious or atheist.

Roger, have you some moral dilemma that prompted the OP? Have you a friend or relative in trouble who you are in a position to help, but you don’t really feel you should because it’s not good for them in the long term, and besides they don’t really deserve it? Or do you pass scenes of poverty every day on your way to your nice comfortable job, and the discrepancy between your good fortune and their misery grates deep down because you know it’s a fundamental clash with the teachings of Jesus?

I’m not going to try and convince you to lead a more humanitarian life, as I think your mind is firmly set on being a righteous tightwad hardass. You can take comfort in your belief that nasty ol’ Fridgemagnet is going to burn in Hell for his heresy, but you may like to concern yourself with the possibility that there may be a very special place in Hell for hypocrite Christians who use the Bible to justify their own selfish ends? Something to muse on. If in doubt, ask a proper theologian. And don’t quote them Leviticus or CS Lewis, or they’ll just tear you a new arsehole twiceways before breakfast.

A friend once said that living a Christian life is a balance. I’ve always felt that ‘combination’ is a better word, since balance suggests that there’s a need to take away something from here and something from there, whereas I believe that you need to as it were overflow in all aspects. So, with regard to Jesus’s words about helping the poor and doing good, rather than just talking about it, I can’t think of any believer who would argue with the importance of that. Certainly not me.

In my OP I chose to focus on ana spect which is less discussed, and possibly less understood, the idea that we should not show partiality to the underprivileged, to the poor. The most interestinga an challenging part of this is that it’s as much in our own best interests (as the advantaged and the rich) as in theirs.

It’s my own thinking that we help where we are needed. Life places before us (or within us) the knowledge of who or what needs our attention now. And of course, each of us has different gifts to offer.

What an interesting viewpoint. Lewis takes the position that different implies a “superiority” and, apparently, an inferiority.

Assuming that the child is present in his classroom, then it would be Lewis’s responsibility to find a way **to get the boy to recognize that he wants to know what he needs to know. It just isn’t always going to be what Lewis would prefer in his aristocratic world. But that is what a real democracy is. It contains individual boys.

Of course, if Lewis didn’t recognize that it was there within each boy already, then the opportunity was lost.

I’m hoping that Lewis was having a bad day when he wrote that. I guess not everyone is a Duncan Phyfe or a Jesus of Nazreth, but Lewis is not coming off well with his argument.

For some reason that comment made me think of Vincent Van Gogh and the one painting he sold during his lifetime.

Did Lewis not take any pleasure in the common man?

I think so, but he could be very demanding, and, reading his letters now (Collected Letters, Vol 2 - weighing in at 1,000 pages), as I am, he had a lifelong battle against being what he calls a prig. But he has tremendous acuity, I believe (evident right from the early years in his diary 1922-27), which almost inevitably - combined with his extraordinary intelligence - meant he could come over as intolerant at times. Himself an inveterate walker (when writing a letter while stuck invigilating for 3 hours he complained of being “talk-less, smoke-less and exercise-less”), he constantly writes of his dislike of mere “hikers”. So, like all of us (and these diaries and letters, at least before he was published in 1933, cannot possibly have been intended for publication), he had his prejudices and his strongly held views on things.

As for your question, he was in fact quite a defender of the qualities of “the man on the Clapham omnibus”. It’s difficult imagining him writing this kind of stuff, if he wasn’t:

“We must get rid of our arrogant assumption that it is the masses that can be led by the nose … The only people who are really the dupes of their favourite newspapers are the intelligentsia.” (from ‘Private Bates’, in Present Concerns: Ethical Essays, London: Collins, 1986)

Thanks, roger. I see why he could be a good teacher; he was still honest with himself.

Reading his letters (now available it seems pretty much unexpurgated), you get a sense of how the man developed - not so much intellectually (he progressed from young genius to older genius!) - but as a human being. As has been noted on the SDMB, he wasn’t popular with all his colleagues, some of whom he’s pretty hard on. (John Betjeman, a student rather than a colleague, actually - but it serves to make a point as he became Poet Laureate - gets it in the neck in Lewis’s diaries, when he was a Tutor and B a student, for being idle and a bit of a fop.) Yet, on the other hand, showing Lewis’s abiding (in my opinion) even-handedness, B gets some good raps for certain essays, discussions at tutorials, etc.

During the war, when he was in great demand as a speaker, after the success of his broadcast talks, he was invited to address, for example, servicemen. I get the feeling from reading such talks that he had a real understanding of, and tremendous respect for, these less well educated sort of people. One of his recurrent themes across all his types of writing is his belief that the modern age (in which he was living) differed more from the Pagan (pre-Christian) and Christian ages than they did from one another (because, for example, of the awareness of sin common to both of the former). His concern was that the post-Christian era was losing its moral compass, I think.

One of the most (to me) attractive things about Lewis was his love of the high and the low, the bawdy and the beatiful, the crude and the spiritual. One of his letters has a hilarious alternative version of some song (I think will dig it out), which is very blue. He was also gloriously irreverent, truly iconoclastic, from an early age. There’s lovely stuff in his diary (circa 1924, when he was 25) about him and his mates making up spoof TS Elliot poems, and having a ball when they actually managed to get them published in avant garde pro-Elliot journals! One of the parodies began"My soul is a windowless facade". Lewis writes that he and his mate (Yorke) then hunted for a rime (sic) “and of course ‘de Sade’ turned up”. So they used that, of course, since it had “the double merit of being irrelevant and offensive”!

Betjeman had lent Lewis the book of Elliot poems that his tutor was mercilessly parodying!