# How's Al Franken's Senate bid going? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2008, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239 "2008-02-12T01:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/681 "2009-03-11T17:01:54Z")
This is sure to endear Coleman to many of his supporters: [Coleman supporters’ private info likely breached](http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/coleman-supporters-private-info-likely-breached-2009-03-11.html) > [@](#): > > Coleman’s campaign is encouraging supporters who think they might have contributed to the campaign to cancel their credit cards. In other news: [Franken to rest in Minn. Senate case](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gMpTmr96V5hKIfyHT4Av4jsVQgrQD96RSHF82) > [@](#): > > Lawyers for Democrat Al Franken plan to call their final witnesses Wednesday and then provisionally rest their case. But that doesn’t mean the seven-week trial is quite done. > > A lawyer representing individual voters who are trying to get their rejected absentee ballots counted has the right to present evidence. And Republican Norm Coleman, who brought the election challenge, can put on witnesses to rebut Franken’s case. > > “We’re not there yet because there are still those steps left,” said Franken lawyer Marc Elias. “But we’re ending what has been a very long postelection process.” ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/682 "2009-03-12T19:59:10Z")
Franken rests. It’s up to the judges now. And the appeals. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/683 "2009-03-12T20:06:24Z")
More information on the situation Squink linked to: [Coleman’s unsecured donor database revealed on Wikileaks](http://minnesotaindependent.com/28711/breaking-colemans-unsecured-donorbase-to-be-revealed-on-wikileaks) > [@](#): > > In late January, allegations were leveled that former Sen. Norm Coleman’s campaign faked the crash of its website, claiming droves of disenfranchised voters brought down the server seeking info on whether their votes were counted. While that charge hasn’t been definitively proven, the scrutiny by web enthusiasts exposed a bigger problem for the campaign: an unprotected database that contained information on campaign donors, including names, email and home addresses, credit card numbers and the three-digit security codes. On Tuesday, donors received an email from the website Wikileaks alerting them that the site has revealed some of the database information. > > “We understand that Norm Coleman became aware of the leak in January,” the note reads, in part. > > A link to the original database was posted in comments at the Minnesota Independent and MNPublius on January 28. So, they violated the law in not only failing to encrypt donor’s credit card information, but they also stored tehe cards’ 3-digit security codes, which no one is ever allowed to store for any purpose, encrypted or not. And beyond that, some unknown party downloaded all this information in January. The Coleman campaign has not responded in any way, did not tell anyone that their credit card information was compromised. Unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/684 "2009-03-12T20:36:25Z")
> [@Beadalin](#): > > And beyond that, some unknown party downloaded all this information in January. The Coleman campaign has not responded in any way Not correct. They were all over the news last night, demanding a “Federal investigation”, claiming it was politically motivated, and trying very hard to imply that Franken’s campaign was behind it (but carefully not actually saying that – they know Franken has some tough lawyers). They just haven’t responded in terms of fixing their insecure website, or notifying their donors of the security breach. At least not in a timely way last January when it happened – I assume they have done something about it now. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/685 "2009-03-12T23:23:19Z")
> [@Beadalin](#): > > More information on the situation Squink linked to: [Coleman’s unsecured donor database revealed on Wikileaks](http://minnesotaindependent.com/28711/breaking-colemans-unsecured-donorbase-to-be-revealed-on-wikileaks) > > So, they violated the law in not only failing to encrypt donor’s credit card information, but they also stored tehe cards’ 3-digit security codes, which no one is ever allowed to store for any purpose, encrypted or not. > > And beyond that, some unknown party downloaded all this information in January. The Coleman campaign has not responded in any way, did not tell anyone that their credit card information was compromised. Unbelievable. In California there is a law requiring such breaches be reported in a timely fashion - do you have a law like that? It might be another violation. I hadn’t heard of the unsecured database before - what a shoemaker. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/686 "2009-03-12T23:43:15Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > what a shoemaker. this can’t be a reference to [Shoemaker-Levy 9](http://images.google.com/images?q=Shoemaker-Levy+9&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=4p25SYCLA4bMyQXrzJmNBg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title) crashing into jupiter, can it? What’s it really mean? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/687 "2009-03-13T00:05:26Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > this can’t be a reference to [Shoemaker-Levy 9](http://images.google.com/images?q=Shoemaker-Levy+9&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=4p25SYCLA4bMyQXrzJmNBg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title) crashing into jupiter, can it? > What’s it really mean? Predates that. It is from a former colleague of mine, from Cicero, IL, who used it all the time. I did work in a place where one of the managers was named Shoemaker, but he really wasn’t sufficiently clueless. I’ve always liked it since it just sounds like a good insult to me. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/688 "2009-03-13T00:05:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > In California there is a law requiring such breaches be reported in a timely fashion - do you have a law like that? It might be another violation. > I hadn’t heard of the unsecured database before - what a shoemaker. Yes, they are supposed to notify them within 48 hours ([325E.61](https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=325E.61)). On top of that, I would find it likely that the CC companies may revoke their ability to collect money. (Kinda doubt it, since on the off chance Norm does make it back to the senate) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/689 "2009-03-13T17:59:37Z")
“Dirty tricks” was the term the Coleman campaign used on the radio to describe what the incident might have been. They didn’t say who pulled the dastardly deed, however. I guess conservatives are left to ponder what Saturday Night Live alum might be implicated here. I wonder if any of Coleman’s high-profile contributers such as Karl Rove, liberal media baron Stanley Hubbard or most of the U.S. Senate Republican contingency used their credit cards when they contributed to Coleman’s challenge fund. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/690 "2009-03-13T18:45:06Z")
[Senate trial closing arguments complete; judges have the case](http://www.twincities.com/allheadlines/ci_11906048) [McConnell: Coleman fight should go to federal court](http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/mcconnell-coleman-fight-should-go-to-federal-courts-2009-03-13.html) > [@](#): > > Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said Friday that he would urge former Sen. Norm Coleman (R-Minn.) to take his legal battle with Al Franken to federal court, potentially dragging out the Minnesota Senate race for several more months. > > “This could end up in federal court, based on the allegations of the Coleman campaign that there hasn’t been a consistent manner of counting votes from county to county,” McConnell told reporters Friday morning. > > McConnell noted that a court ruling in the post-election battle between Al Gore and George W. Bush found that the 14th Amendment required that votes must be counted the same way in different counties. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/691 "2009-03-13T18:59:35Z")
The next step is the MN Supreme Court, which has to take the appeal, but which will uphold the decision in favor of Franken. After that, Coleman can try to go the federal route (my impression was that the next stop would be SCOTUS, but maybe they have to go through a circuit court first), but the federal courts don’t have to hear it, and the consenus (about SCOTUS anyway) is that they won’t bother. After that, Coleman is talking about a possible Equal Protection lawsuit, which would still go nowhere but could still delay and stall, and keep Franken from being able to take his seat, which is the only goal anymore. Even if Coleman somehow managed to miraculously steal the election back from Franken, I don’t think the Senate Dems would ever accept his certification and would refuse to seat him. The one and only goal of this whole process is to try to keep the Dems that one more seat away from cloture, and they’ll stall all the way to the 2010 Midterm if they can. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/692 "2009-03-13T19:22:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > After that, Coleman is talking about a possible Equal Protection lawsuit, which would still go nowhere but could still delay and stall, and keep Franken from being able to take his seat, which is the only goal anymore. I know state law says a certificate can’t be issued until the election contest is over, does that include appeals? I wouldn’t think so. Assuming Franken wins, I’d guess he’ll get the election certificate issued and be seated, regardless of the appeals process. Kinda like a criminal goes to jail even while appeals are being worked on. In the event that the appeal on Equal Protection wins, won’t they have to have a new election anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/693 "2009-03-13T19:49:22Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > I know state law says a certificate can’t be issued until the election contest is over, does that include appeals? I wouldn’t think so. Assuming Franken wins, I’d guess he’ll get the election certificate issued and be seated, regardless of the appeals process. Kinda like a criminal goes to jail even while appeals are being worked on. I think the law is worded in such a way that the Governor doesn’t have to certyify until the election is “decided,” and that Pawlenty is basically using any and all ongoing appeals and delays as cover for saying the election is still “undecided.” This is something else that would probably have to be decided by a court, though. Franken has already lost one attempt to ask the courts to force Pawlenty to certify. > [@](#): > > In the event that the appeal on Equal Protection wins, won’t they have to have a new election anyway? I have no idea what the remedy would be, but since it would have ramifications for many more elections in many more states than just Coleman-Franken, I doubt a new election would be ordered (it would mean even having to redo the Presidential election in some states). I think it would be too catastrophic a remedy, and I think the case is exceedingly weak on the merits anyway. Different methods of counting does not equal different “standards,” the way Coleman is alleging, and he would have to prove that voters were actually be disenfranchised by different counting methods. I’ve heard a lot of lawyers talking about this election in the local media here, and none of them seem to think that the EP argument would have any legs. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/694 "2009-03-18T14:59:01Z")
If Franken wins, [he’s going to move to charge Coleman for costs and attorneys’ fees!](http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/41394162.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O%20%3Cimg%20src=) (In Florida, it is routine for the losing party in civil litigation to be assessed the winner’s costs, but attorney’s fees are much harder to get; it’s probably that way in Minnesota too, it’s the [American rule](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_rule) as opposed to the [English rule](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_rule).) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/695 "2009-03-18T15:40:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Franken has already lost one attempt to ask the courts to force Pawlenty to certify. On the basis that it was premature, not that they lacked the authority, though, right? > [@](#): > > Different methods of counting does not equal different “standards,” the way Coleman is alleging, and he would have to prove that voters were actually be disenfranchised by different counting methods. I’ve heard a lot of lawyers talking about this election in the local media here, and none of them seem to think that the EP argument would have any legs. SCOTUS ruled the opposite in _Bush v. Gore_, as you know. Wouldn’t it be fun to watch Coleman try to cite that to them as a precedent? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/696 "2009-03-18T18:21:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > On the basis that it was premature, not that they lacked the authority, though, right. Kinda. The full ruling is here: [http://www.mncourts.gov/opinions/sc/current/OPA090064-0306.pdf](http://www.mncourts.gov/opinions/sc/current/OPA090064-0306.pdf) It’s actually a pretty good read. Franken’s position is more nuanced than I originally thought it was. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/697 "2009-03-27T18:37:02Z")
[More troubles for Coleman](http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/41952432.html?page=1&c=y): > [@](#): > > The former finance chief of a Texas company controlled by Nasser Kazeminy, a close friend of former Sen. Norm Coleman, said in a deposition last week that Kazeminy ordered $100,000 in fees be paid to a Minneapolis insurance agency where Coleman’s wife was employed. > > B.J. Thomas, who was chief financial officer of Deep Marine Technology Inc., said that $75,000 of that sum was paid to Hays Companies even though he saw no evidence of Deep Marine receiving any consulting services from Hays. > > Thomas’ deposition, taken under oath on March 19 and obtained by the Star Tribune, is the first corroboration from an official at Deep Marine of allegations made by company founder Paul McKim in a lawsuit filed last year against the company. > > In the two weeks before the November U.S. Senate election, two lawsuits were filed against Deep Marine – one by McKim and one by a group of minority shareholders. In them, Kazeminy was accused of funneling payments to Hays to benefit the Colemans, as well as other alleged financial wrongdoing. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/698 "2009-03-27T23:29:11Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > It’s actually a pretty good read. Franken’s position is more nuanced than I originally thought it was. For someone who’s interested but doesn’t have the legal chops, could you explain in a nutshell his position? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/699 "2009-03-28T15:09:15Z")
I wonder if he is building seniority at this time? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/700 "2009-03-28T20:35:02Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I wonder if he is building seniority at this time? I don’t believe so, as he hasn’t been seated by the Senate yet. He also is not drawing his Senate salary yet. P.S. Coleman is not drawing a Senate salary either, since his term ended. But recent info locally is that the reason that he was present in court almost every day of his Election Contest is that he was being paid for this – his campaign committee was paying him as a lawyer at his hourly rate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239.md?page=36)