# How's Al Franken's Senate bid going? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2008, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239 "2008-02-12T01:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/921 "2009-04-28T21:53:00Z")
Perhaps in future, we will keep all election results sealed in a black box. Nobody will know the quantum state of the actual election, so Norm will have officially been elected. Makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/922 "2009-04-28T23:05:50Z")
Or maybe he won’t have been. Y’know, I could go either way on this thing. ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/923 "2009-04-28T23:10:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think [Eric Black](http://www.minnpost.com/ericblack/2009/04/21/8214/colemanfranken_case_thinking_out_loud_about_equal_protection_part_one) summarizes the issue well in his MinnPost column: > The 3 Judge Panel rejected Coleman’s complaint essentially on the grounds that all elections have these kinds of variations, and that the process cannot be perfected, that no intentional fraud or malice was shown, and that while ballots counted in error (which are mostly theoretical and can’t be quantified) cannot be uncounted, Coleman’s requested remedy (counting MORE illegitimate ballots) which not make the count more legitimate but LESS so (hence the comparison to counting all votes of felons if one gets counted accidentally). > > Coleman’s other requested remedy, a new election, has no basis in Minnesota law, and could not bring any more perfect results in uniform standards anyway (plus Coleman knows he would get his ass handed to him in a revote, so it’s not really an ingenuous request). > > In summary, no election can insure perfectly uniform standards. Coleman has not shown any fraud, and has not offered a remedy which would bring perfection to the results, he only wants to INCREASE the imperfection enough to benefit himself. How exactly would Coleman get his ass handed to him in a new election? Afterall, the first election was pretty close. Just saying… ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/924 "2009-04-28T23:22:23Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > How exactly would Coleman get his ass handed to him in a new election? Afterall, the first election was pretty close. Just saying… Presumabely because a lot of folks who were on the fence, but leaning towards Coleman can see through what he is doing (not actually trying to win, but trying to keep Franken from being seated through any means necessary) would be disgusted enough to change their vote. Lord knows I would, in that situation. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/925 "2009-04-28T23:28:31Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > How exactly would Coleman get his ass handed to him in a new election? Afterall, the first election was pretty close. Just saying… Several reasons jump to mind. 1. In a recent poll, already cited in this thread, a majority of Minnesotans indicated that they want Coleman stand down. 2. Coleman has demonstrated himself to be a hypocrite. (Not only that, but his statement – that Franken should have conceded on election night – wasn’t even legally possible.) 3. Coleman has never been particularly popular in this state. Notice that he won over Walter Mondale by a very narrow margin, when Mondale had only been a candidate for about two weeks – Mondale was brought in to run in place of the deceased Wellstone. Further, he previously lost the race for Governer to Jesse Ventura. What does that tell you about how he is perceived? The list goes on but it’s beautiful outside and I gotta git. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/926 "2009-04-28T23:33:12Z")
Well, perhaps, given the wildfire of Republican popularity surging through the country, coupled with Minnesota’s long standing affection for pissy, snotty little losers, it could definitely happen. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/927 "2009-04-28T23:41:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, perhaps, given the wildfire of Republican popularity surging through the country… Have you heard? [The biggest tent is the **FREEDOM** tent!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-O1e6fqk-0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnsfw.sidewayspony.com%2F&feature=player_embedded) ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/928 "2009-04-28T23:48:06Z")
Norm Coleman is saying “let there be a brand-new election” because it is a no-lose statement for him to make. One, it’ll never happen; Minnesota law does not provide for a brand-new election. But two, and more significantly, nobody on the Democrat side of the aisle — least of all Franken — is going to come out against an election. Coleman could spin that all kinds of ways: trying to silence the voice of the people, anti-democratic, power-hungry, anti-American, etc. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/929 "2009-04-29T00:00:47Z")
“Oh, Lawdy, B’rer Norm! Please, oh, please, don’t you throw me into that briar patch, have mercy and don’t you be throwin’ poor ol’ Al into that terrible, terrible briar patch…” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/930 "2009-04-29T00:16:22Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > How exactly would Coleman get his ass handed to him in a new election? Afterall, the first election was pretty close. Just saying… In addition to the already mentioned slide in support and popularity for Coleman during this process (and he was never wildly popular to begin with), it also needs to be pointed out that the first election was a 3-way race. The Independent candidate, Dean Barkey, got 17% of the vote, the majority of those votes would now go to Franken. ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/931 "2009-04-29T01:00:04Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In addition to the already mentioned slide in support and popularity for Coleman during this process (and he was never wildly popular to begin with), it also needs to be pointed out that the first election was a 3-way race. The Independent candidate, Dean Barkey, got 17% of the vote, the majority of those votes would now go to Franken. Why wouldn’t Dean Barkley get to be in the new election? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/932 "2009-04-29T01:18:39Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > Why wouldn’t Dean Barkley get to be in the new election? Because it would presumably be a runoff. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/933 "2009-04-29T01:21:28Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > Why wouldn’t Dean Barkley get to be in the new election? There’s no legal mechanism for any revote in Minnesota, so you can make up anything you want. If Dean Barkley was in the new election, a lot of people who voted for him would switch (like Ross Perot voters in 1996, or Ralph Nader voters in 2004). If he wasn’t, they would have to switch or not vote. Either scenario favors Franken. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/934 "2009-04-29T02:32:20Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Eh, Franken’s still got nothing on Reed Smoot…elected in 1902, wasn’t able to take his seat until 1907. Of Smoot-Hawley fame? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/935 "2009-04-29T02:36:31Z")
That’s the guy! For some reason I have a repro campaign button supporting it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/936 "2009-04-29T03:06:18Z")
Right…Smoot was a Mormon Apostle, and his opponents turned his seating into a referendum on Mormonism. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/937 "2009-04-29T07:43:52Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > The reason that one was challenged is clear if you look at the picture closely (or even clearer if you looked at the whole ballot). That voter carefully filled in the ovals for all the other items on the ballot, only the vote for Coleman had that big X written over it. (In the portion of the ballot shown, you can see one other vote off in the left column.) So Franken can make an argument that this voter wanted to cross off their vote for Coleman. (The voter should have asked for a new ballot, to replace the spoiled one, but many people don’t do this.) If I remember correctly, for a while that was how our ballots specifically said to change your vote if you made a mistake. Now the convention is to draw a line through the candidate’s entire name and correct your vote. > [@Miller](#): > > Coleman’s latest objection is that the court changed the outcome of the election by observing it. VERY nicely done! ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/938 "2009-04-29T12:12:50Z")
> [@Cyberhwk](#): > > If I remember correctly, for a while that was how our ballots specifically said to change your vote if you made a mistake. Now the convention is to draw a line through the candidate’s entire name and correct your vote. Perhaps that’s the way it’s done in your state (and that invites ambiguity and confusion), but in Wisconsin, the correct and only way to fix a mistake is to _ask for another ballot._ IIRC, those instructions are printed right on the ballot itself, at least the paper (but machine readable) ones we use locally. The instructions you suggest are not machine readable compatible, as simple optical scanners don’t have that much sophistication to distinguish lines from circles from blots from signatures from… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/939 "2009-04-29T13:46:20Z")
In Ohio you’re supposed to ask for another ballot, which you can do up to three times. (I guess the philosopher-kings of the Ohio General Assembly decided that if it took you four tries to cast an understandable ballot, you were too much of a ninny to vote anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239/940 "2009-04-29T18:56:47Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > In Ohio you’re supposed to ask for another ballot, which you can do up to three times. (I guess the philosopher-kings of the Ohio General Assembly decided that if it took you four tries to cast an understandable ballot, you were too much of a ninny to vote anyway). Minnesota has no limit, AFAIK. There was a story in the newspaper about an immigrant who had just become a citizen and was voting for the first time – she was so excited at voting that she marked the wrong candidate on her ballot – it took her 5 tries before she got it right (and I think that time was because she had her teenager actually mark the ballot for her). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hows-al-frankens-senate-bid-going/437239.md?page=48)