# HR question: "insubordination" outside a military environment **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 9, 2017, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711 "2017-01-09T11:48:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/41 "2017-01-09T23:43:34Z")
Back when I was a practicing pharmacist, we had a few untouchable technicians who could be chronically insubordinate and get away with it. :mad: :smack: One would, if I asked her to do something, would say “Make me, bitch” :eek: or deliberately do it wrong, EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. How she managed to keep working there was never explained, and no, I wasn’t the only person she did that to. The only thing I can think of is that she must have, ahem, known someone, because she did not belong to any kind of protected class. Several years ago, after I left the job I got after that nightmare of a place, I was asked by an job interviewer why I left Hospital X after 4 months. I hemmed and hawed a bit, and was told, “You can tell me the truth. I’ve been told many times that Hospital X is a very difficult place to work at.” She wasn’t the only reason, but was one of them. At another job, there was another tech who was written up, more than once, for insubordination. One memorable incident was when I handed her a bag of stat Anzemet (an anti-nausea drug that the patient needed immediately) and she refused to put it in the pneumatic tube, which she was standing right next to, because she was “too busy”. Yeah, she didn’t get away with that. I should add that a couple years after I left that place, two of her children died in a horrific car accident, and in all the condolence messages I saw, I never saw the word “friend” in reference to her or her husband. ☹ Yet another time at the same job, there was a 20-something tech who was copping a major attitude with everybody, and gave it up really fast when I said “First/middle/last name, you look at me when I’m talking to you!”. Several other people who witnessed it or heard about it thanked me. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/42 "2017-01-10T01:02:23Z")
I avoid this problem at work by keeping my mouth shut and doing what I’m told. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/43 "2017-01-10T01:03:17Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > There’s still room for an honest charge of “insubordination” in the cracks of the scenario you (incompletely) describe. If “dissent” means that “I know my job, the boss is trying to change my job is but I disagree”, then that’s actually insubordination. If it’s just “I’m doing my job but I don’t like where this is headed and I’m not afraid to say so”, than “insubordination” is an inaccurate word to use in this context. (But perhaps useful in an HR sense.) Lots of wiggle room for the boss, eh? I (incompletely) described it because I don’t know all the details. But since several other people have been fired recently, I have a hard time believing they’ve all been insubordinate. This is a fairly posh private high school in a big city on the east coast. And no, AFAIK the CEO didn’t lock up the strawberries. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/44 "2017-01-10T01:22:50Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Lots of wiggle room for the boss, eh? I (incompletely) described it because I don’t know all the details. But since several other people have been fired recently, I have a hard time believing they’ve all been insubordinate. This is a fairly posh private high school in a big city on the east coast. And no, AFAIK the CEO didn’t lock up the strawberries. Whether he was actually insubordinate or not is one issue, and whether what he is accused of is properly described as “insubordination” is another. Let’s say , for example, that the clashes have been over changes in policies or procedures. And every time there is a change, your friend says something to the effect of “That’s a stupid policy. I’ve been doing it this way for the last 40 years and I’m not going to change.” And then he doesn’t change. That would be insubordination. Now , it is entirely possible that your friend did no such thing, and the CEO is lying when he says he did - maybe all your friend did was express disagreement with the policy but did comply with it . In that case your friend was not _actually_ insubordinate, but the behavior he is accused of is still properly described as insubordination And the “wiggle room” is that there is no shortage of people in the world who will say “That’s a stupid policy. I’ve been doing it this way for the last 40 years and I’m not going to change.” and describe to to their friends and coworkers as “dissent”. They may even truly believe that all they did was dissent. People shade events when they are describing them to others and even to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/45 "2017-01-10T02:52:15Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Maybe I’m the only person in the world who prefers to talk to myself thusly, “I’m doing what is requested of me,” and not “I’m following orders.” In my long career, I never felt that i was being ordered to do anything or was following orders when I was given a directive, even when I worked for the gruff, tactless retired Coast Guard Commander (of blessed memory). \ I feel that precise language is important, and never more so than in the conversations that go on inside your own head. … …except your assigned tasks are not “requested of you” In precise language, you are fulfilling your duties as outlined by your job description under the direction of your supervisor for which you are awarded your salary. This is the contract you agreed to when you accepted the position. I supervise a large staff and although I may politely “request” that they complete an assignment, in reality, I’m telling them what to do , not asking. At times I may have to remind people that while I appreciate their input, I am not soliciting for a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/46 "2017-01-10T04:04:44Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > We can all have our own private meanings for words. I no longer believe that “pink” is a color but rather a type of bread, for example. Don’t ask how much miscommunication that has caused, especially when my wife asked for new underwear. > > The only problem is when one attempts to impose a meaning on others and that ain’t going to fly. > > “Insubordination” is used in the civilian world to mean that an employee refuses to follow the direction of the boss or company. > > When I was a manager then there were cases where I had to fire people who refused to follow company’s or my directions. > > I had an assistant who refused to answer the phone in the established manner because she felt her approach was better. I let her know that her opinion was noted but this was company policy and to do it. She didn’t and was out of the door in 15 minutes. Our internal notes was that she was fired for “insubordination and refusal to follow company procedures.” > > Because she was fired for cause, she would not be eligible for immediate benefits under Japanese unemployment regulations. At my previous job in Japan I managed a group of ten people. One woman refused to take directions from a foriegner (me) because it was beneath her or some shit, so we let her go. Same reasons, insubordination - it sounds a bit militaristic, but I think it’s an appropriate term in this case. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/47 "2017-01-10T16:52:16Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > To me, supervisors can make requests, issue directives, set policy and those things can be enforced **ultimately** by firing, after the proper procedures have been followed. And that differs from how the military operates, how? Do you think every superior officer in the military can “fire” any subordinate at will for “disobeying an order”? You think there are no procedures to be followed before the subordinate can be kicked out of the military? Sorry, but you are tying yourself up in semantic knots just because you don’t like the sound of the word “insubordination”. n.b.: emphasis added: A [directive](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/directive) is an order. ---
**Author:** ![thatguyjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6de8d8/32.png) [@thatguyjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thatguyjeff)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/48 "2017-01-10T17:00:24Z")
In very simple, generalized terms, “civilian” insubordination = not doing your job. Your job is to do what the boss tells you to do. If you don’t do your job, you can be fired. When you hear someone say, “Soandso isn’t doing their job,” that means Soandso is being insubordinate. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/49 "2017-01-10T19:03:50Z")
well, it’s dumbass and abusive to me; the reason for insubordination in the military is if you don’t do your job people may die. Plus, it’s not an 8-hour shift pattern People are less likely to die if you don’t complete filling a shelf or the photocopying: asking gets the same response as demanding - except the latter makes you a cockhead no one respects. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/50 "2017-01-10T19:07:42Z")
I suppose we could start calling people who don’t do their jobs “managerially challenged”. Is that better? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/51 "2017-01-10T19:14:17Z")
If anyone isn’t doing their job there is an informal and then a formal process. Call it what you like ‘let go’ ‘dismissed’ there’s dozens of options for something that’s existed for the entirety of history. It’s just a job, you’re not refusing to go over the top at The Somme. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/52 "2017-01-10T19:39:09Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > well, it’s dumbass and abusive to me; the reason for insubordination in the military is if you don’t do your job people may die. Plus, it’s not an 8-hour shift pattern > > People are less likely to die if you don’t complete filling a shelf or the photocopying: asking gets the same response as demanding - except the latter makes you a cockhead no one respects. People are less likely to die (in most jobs), but the job still needs to be done. The difference between asking vs. demanding is a matter of style vs. substance. As a civilian, you won’t be thrown in the brig for refusing to do your job but you’ll still be fired - and you’ll be fired for insubordination regardless of whether your boss “asked” or “ordered” you to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/53 "2017-01-10T19:40:15Z")
Yeah, doesn’t “asking” imply that you will accept a “No” answer? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/54 "2017-01-10T19:50:28Z")
I assume not given pretty much every work interaction in - at the very least - Europe and the Anglo world beyond the USA works exactly that way. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/55 "2017-01-10T19:52:37Z")
tbh, this reminds me a little of the US preference for “I need ‘x’” when pretty well everywhere else, at least until very recently, it is “I would like’x’”. Could be a culture/style thing. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/56 "2017-01-10T19:54:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Refusal to perform a job would definitely count as insubordination in my book. I had a friend, however, who (according to her account) was written up for insubordination for her behavior at a staff meeting. The principal said she understood some people were unhappy with a recent decision and that she wanted to clear the air and hear the criticisms; apparently when my friend offered those criticisms in public, it turned out not to be what the principal wanted after all, thus the write-up. > > I wasn’t there, and this was about a decade ago so I don’t remember the exact details; still, I think sometimes discipline for insubordination can be deleterious to an organization, when it’s used to stifle dissent. It’s hard to offer an opinion without being there. But a lot of it has to do with the manner in which one offers their criticism. On one of my recent consulting engagements, the client had a VP who was constantly bitching and complaining about every aspect of the project. Now she had some valid criticism if you filter out the noise. But her tone and constant repetition was starting to become, if not insubordinate, certainly bordering on inappropriate. Sometimes there is a time to provide constructive feedback on a new initiative or policy. Sometimes you just have to shut up and do what you’re told. After all, it’s just some stupid corporate job. No one is asking you to go over the top at The Somme. > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > well, it’s dumbass and abusive to me; the reason for insubordination in the military is if you don’t do your job people may die. Plus, it’s not an 8-hour shift pattern Abusive to do what? Insist that you actually do the job someone is paying you to do? > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > People are less likely to die if you don’t complete filling a shelf or the photocopying: asking gets the same response as demanding - except the latter makes you a cockhead no one respects. That’s sort of not the point. If your manager asks you to stock the shelf and you refuse, that’s being insubordinate. Sure, it’s not life or death. But you also won’t get sent to Leavenworth either. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/57 "2017-01-10T20:05:02Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > In civilian life, you can’t say, “Drop and give me 50,” give no reason, and punish someone who won’t do it. If you are that person’s employer, you can do just that. That is what at-will employment means. Unless you have a contract, or you are being fired for reasons protected by law (race, relgion, sex, etc.) you could be punished by being fired for not dropping and giving your boss fifty. Is this a dumb move? Yes, absolutely. Is this legal? Yes, absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/58 "2017-01-10T20:34:47Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > well, it’s dumbass and abusive to me; the reason for insubordination in the military is if you don’t do your job people may die. Plus, it’s not an 8-hour shift pattern > > People are less likely to die if you don’t complete filling a shelf or the photocopying: asking gets the same response as demanding - except the latter makes you a cockhead no one respects. Also, you can quit a civilian job if you don’t like your boss. You can’t quit the army. FTR, I got my questions answered and I appreciate the discussion. However, I’m outta here. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/59 "2017-01-10T23:29:43Z")
Our manual section on serious misconduct contains the phrasing: “insubordination (e.g., refusal without reason to perform a work assignment)” It’s not clear if they made the mistake of using e.g. instead of i.e. or if there are other examples that constitute insubordination. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711/60 "2017-01-10T23:41:23Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > At my previous job in Japan I managed a group of ten people. One woman refused to take directions from a foriegner (me) because it was beneath her or some shit, so we let her go. Same reasons, insubordination - it sounds a bit militaristic, but I think it’s an appropriate term in this case. Any manager will have had to let someone go for some reason or not, but insubordination is refusing to follow proper directions and it happens rarely. Thinking back about it, I’ve had fire someone for that one time. More about that assistant. We had had problems prior to that and her refusal to follow directions was the final straw. She thought that she was a better judge than her boss of what was a good corporate image. The company felt differently. She didn’t back down. She needed to look for a new job. > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Maybe I’m the only person in the world who prefers to talk to myself thusly, “I’m doing what is requested of me,” and not “I’m following orders.” In my long career, I never felt that i was being ordered to do anything or was following orders when I was given a directive, even when I worked for the gruff, tactless retired Coast Guard Commander (of blessed memory). \ I feel that precise language is important, and never more so than in the conversations that go on inside your own head. I don’t understand your instance both that the precise language is important while maintaining that you can assign words meanings independently of the rest of the world. In my several decades of managing people, I never once worried what their internal conversation was. I only cared if they did their job, which included following directions. It’s irrelevant if they were telling themselves that they were following orders, doing what they were requested or following the divine commandments of a demigod – although to the best of my knowledge I was never mistaken for a demigod. However, it was a problem if the exterior showed a lack of enthusiasm or worse insubordination. If you followed directions enthusiastically \*and \*your internal dialogue was that you were doing me a favor, I would never know, nor would I care. If your internal dialogue was that following orders and you were a consistently a smart ass about it, you would find yourself not working for me any more. A boss should have no need to “order” people to do things. But that is what a directive is. Even in the military, subordinates are able to question their superiors, but there is a stage where the person in charge ends the conversation and says it’s been decided and the subordinate needs to get on board. In the military, they may say, “This is an order.” In corporate speak, they may say, “This is policy.” Failure to comply will result in discipline, up to criminal charges in the military or termination in the civilian world. Attempt to pretend they aren’t the same is simply silly. There has been a tread by someone in the military who says that would be really uncommon even in the military to be required to state, “This is an order.” The superior tells the subordinate to do something and the de facto assumption is that it’s an order. It would take a piss-poor leader inside or outside the military to have to state something that obvious all the time. > [@](#): > > So y’all are saying that as far as most HR departments are concerned, “insubordination” is a legitimate reason for firing someone? Yes, and why would companies allow employees to pick and chose which rules they follow? Following proper instructions if part of any job. > [@](#): > > And I suppose the specifics of what constitutes that are left up to the supervisor who felt slighted? Good luck with that. How do you prove _insubordination_ if the fired person wants to dispute it? Why on Earth would you assume that companies allow bosses to decide that entirely on their own, any more than companies would allow pure democracy in their ranks? How do you prove anything? How do you prove someone didn’t do their job? You document. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hr-question-insubordination-outside-a-military-environment/776711.md?page=4)