# HRC has her first faithless elector **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 5, 2016, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669 "2016-11-05T05:17:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/1 "2016-11-05T05:17:42Z")
> **[Washington state elector says he won't vote for Clinton](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/washington-state-elector-says-he-wont-vote-for-clinton)** > > A Democratic elector in Washington state said Friday that he would not cast his Electoral College vote for Hillary Clinton if, as is likely, she wins the state in Tuesday's election. > [@](#): > > A Democratic elector in Washington state said Friday that he would not cast his Electoral College vote for Hillary Clinton if, as is likely, she wins the state in Tuesday’s election. This could still be exciting even after Tuesday ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/2 "2016-11-05T07:01:07Z")
IIRC, he’s also said he won’t be faithless if doing so would change the outcome of the election. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/3 "2016-11-05T07:27:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > IIRC, he’s also said he won’t be faithless if doing so would change the outcome of the election. That’s not what he’s saying now, but who knows what he’ll actually do. [http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/hes-a-state-democratic-elector-but-robert-satiacum-says-he-wont-vote-for-clinton/](http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/hes-a-state-democratic-elector-but-robert-satiacum-says-he-wont-vote-for-clinton/) > [@](#): > > He had earlier told various media outlets he was wrestling with whether his conscience would allow him to support Clinton and was considering stepping aside for an alternate elector. But on Friday, he sounded firm, even if the election is close. > > “I hope it comes down to a swing vote and it’s me,” he said. “Good. She ain’t getting it. Maybe it’ll wake this country up.” > > … > > But he said he’s heard from a few other national Democratic electors who are considering joining him. I highly doubt that last quoted sentence, but who knows. Maybe the guy is hearing voices. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/4 "2016-11-05T07:40:34Z")
Well, that’s certainly disappointing, and he should be ashamed of himself for disrespecting the wishes of the Washingtonian electorate. Unless the Electoral result is 270-268, his futile gesture won’t make a difference, at least - and if he did hand the election to Trump under those circumstances he’ll go down as one of the most hated people in American history and rightly so. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/5 "2016-11-05T07:49:36Z")
I’m confident Trump will win the faithless elector vote. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/6 "2016-11-05T10:35:46Z")
Like I’ve said in other threads, the Electoral College is one of our electoral system’s greatest vulnerabilities. The electors can be required to take a pledge that they will vote for the candidate whose slate they’re on, and states can pass laws of untested Constitutionality that penalize a faithless elector. But the Electoral College, in the end, is composed of 538 _people_, rather than 538 automatic votes. And the Constitution, as was the clear intent of the Founders, empowers them to be the Deciders, and make that decision however they want. They could all decide to vote for Evan McMullin, and who could stop them? If they did, the Constitution says he’d be our next President. One of these years, that’s gonna bite this country in the ass. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/7 "2016-11-05T11:50:39Z")
> **[Rogue Electoral College Voter Announces Campaign to Be Most Hated Person in U.S.](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2016/11/rouge-electoral-college-voter-refuses-to-vote-for-hillary.html)** > > He supported Bernie Sanders in the primary and won’t vote for Clinton even if she wins Washington State. I don’t know if it will happen in this election, but unless we finally scrap the electoral college, it is inevitable – eventually, this outdated system that nobody really, truly believes in will produce an existential political crisis. Maybe it’s this year. Who knows? I seem to recall a republican elector from Georgia making a similar pronouncement earlier in the year about Trump, but he resigned. Any chance we could get this clown to do the same? Or, worse, will he inspire other protest voters? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/8 "2016-11-05T12:02:11Z")
Not necessarily. It’s there for a reason, just in case the public acts stupid. The problem is that IMO the only way the EC can do its duty is to support neither Clinton NOR Trump, but rather if Clinton wins, to select a more decent Democrat, say Tim Kaine. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/9 "2016-11-05T12:03:46Z")
Besides, he should just quote Clinton. “It was allowed.” See, no scandal if it’s allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/10 "2016-11-05T12:03:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s there for a reason, just in case the public acts stupid. 'Twere that true, there’d be not a single elector willing to vote for Trump. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/11 "2016-11-05T12:10:03Z")
My first reaction was gut-wrenching disgust, but in truth, I actually think this guy is doing us a public service. He might actually be doing us a favor by making the race more interesting than it should be. It’ll convince other blue states to pass laws that jail and fine the ever-living crap out of faithless electors. People in that role who ignore the will of the voters should still have the ability to do so, but they should be punished severely for it. I think there actually is a case for a faithless elector but it should be narrowly defined to things like finding out after the fact that there is strong evidence for vote rigging or something that would call into doubt the legitimacy of the candidate. But voting just to use your power to promote a personal agenda should be criminalized. If someone can still live with the consequences of being jailed and fined, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/12 "2016-11-05T12:12:29Z")
Actually punishing a faithless elector could be unconstitutional. The courts do not look kindly on officials’ power being taken away that the Constitution specifically delegates to them. And the Constitution specifically says the electors vote for the President. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/13 "2016-11-05T12:14:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Besides, he should just quote Clinton. “It was allowed.” See, no scandal if it’s allowed. If someone were accusing him of committing a crime and shouting that he should be “locked up,” your _tu quoque_ analogy would be a little smarter, but I guess we all use what we have to work with. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/14 "2016-11-05T12:15:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Actually punishing a faithless elector could be unconstitutional. The courts do not look kindly on officials’ power being taken away that the Constitution specifically delegates to them. And the Constitution specifically says the electors vote for the President. There are already state laws against faithless electors and the states are given broad discretion on how to conduct their elections and how to choose their electors. A state law that attempts to bind an elector to carry out the wishes of the state that nominates them is most likely constitutional. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/15 "2016-11-05T12:16:27Z")
Here’s what Wikipedia says: > [@](#): > > The constitutionality of state pledge laws was confirmed by the Supreme Court in 1952 in Ray v. Blair[5] in a 5-2 vote. The court ruled that the states have the right to require electors to pledge to vote for the candidate whom their party supports, and the right to remove potential electors who refuse to pledge prior to the election. The court also wrote: > > However, even if such promises of candidates for the electoral college are legally unenforceable because violative of an assumed constitutional freedom of the elector under the Constitution, Art. II, § 1, to vote as he may choose in the electoral college, it would not follow that the requirement of a pledge in the primary is unconstitutional (emphasis added).[5] > > The ruling only held that requiring a pledge, not a vote, was constitutional and Justice Jackson wrote in his dissent, “no one faithful to our history can deny that the plan originally contemplated what is implicit in its text – that electors would be free agents, to exercise an independent and nonpartisan judgment as to the men best qualified for the Nation’s highest offices.” More recent legal scholars believe “a state law that would thwart a federal elector’s discretion at an extraordinary time when it reasonably must be exercised would clearly violate Article II and the Twelfth Amendment.”[6] > > The Supreme Court has never ruled on the constitutionality of state laws that punish electors for actually casting a faithless vote. So it looks like this guy can be removed and replaced, but anyone who actually gets to vote has the right to vote however they please. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/16 "2016-11-05T12:19:47Z")
Merged similar threads. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/17 "2016-11-05T12:22:38Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > There are already state laws against faithless electors and the states are given broad discretion on how to conduct their elections and how to choose their electors. A state law that attempts to bind an elector to carry out the wishes of the state that nominates them is most likely constitutional. The pledge is legal, punishment is probably not. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/18 "2016-11-05T12:38:41Z")
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but why are electors chosen **before** the election? Seems like an easy fix would be to choose them after the election, and allow the winning campaign to choose them. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/19 "2016-11-05T12:50:53Z")
Looking at this through the lens of strict legalism is not very useful. In an actual constitutional crisis (which an electoral coup would quite possibly be), justifications are made up after the fact, and later understood to be the imperfect product of a difficult time and place. They didn’t carve Abe Lincoln into a mountain because he was careful to hew only to the strict and narrow text of the law when acting to save the union. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Sorry if this is a dumb question, but why are electors chosen **before** the election? Seems like an easy fix would be to choose them after the election, and allow the winning campaign to choose them. That’s the whole point of the election on Tuesday. We’re voting on which people will be presidential electors (there’s probably fine print on your ballot explaining this). If the parties don’t choose their 538 candidates before Tuesday, there’s nothing to vote for. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669/20 "2016-11-05T12:58:12Z")
Electors choosing someone else as President wouldn’t be a danger to the republic, it would be the institution doing exactly what it was designed to do. And it’s not like either of these jokers is riding a wave of popularity into the White House. Most people wish there was another choice. And the electors can still do the next best thing by just voting one of the VP candidates in. “Hey, we realize you voted the Democratic ticket, but the head of the ticket is very problematic, so we’ll allow Kaine in her stead.” It’s not as if they don’t have cause. Both candidates have multiple FBI investigations going on. That is unprecedented. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hrc-has-her-first-faithless-elector/770669.md?page=2)