# HS expels student for shotguns being in his truck \*off\* school property. Can they really do this? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534 "2009-11-22T16:42:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/21 "2009-11-22T18:28:41Z")
[QUOTE=Mommy] “We have always, always stressed that safety is important,” she said. [/QUOTE] He left shotguns in a truck off-property where school security couldn’t keep an eye on it because he couldn’t be bothered to put them where they belonged, shotgun shells were also readily available in said truck,and another friend had gone bird hunting with him and left _his_ gun in the truck so it was highly likely that other students knew the where the guns were. So much for Mommy’s safety training. If anything had happened because of this and someone else had gotten hurt or killed, or even if there had been property damage, I guarantee you that the school would have had their asses sued off. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/22 "2009-11-22T18:31:42Z")
What I find interesting is this statement made by the principal: > [@](#): > > Geivett said the school was responsible for students traveling to and from school as well as during lunch. He said he believed that students should not possess weapons within 1,000 feet of campus. If that is true, then would’t the school be liable for any incident that happened off school property while the student is in transit? If this is actually true then they should be responsible for stopping before/after school fights, student speeding, and all the rest of the stuff that high school kids do until the kids get home. That seems like a stretch. What if the kid goes to the mall instead of home? Is the school responsible for the kid at the mall? If this is the case I should have sued the hell out of my middle school and high school. I was in an accident or two and a couple fights\*. Slee \*Won one, lost one. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/23 "2009-11-22T18:32:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He left shotguns in a truck off-property where school security couldn’t keep an eye on it because he couldn’t be bothered to put them where they belonged, shotgun shells were also readily available in said truck,and another friend had gone bird hunting with him and left _his_ gun in the truck so it was highly likely that other students knew the where the guns were. So much for Mommy’s safety training. > If anything had happened because of this and someone else had gotten hurt or killed, or even if there had been property damage, I guarantee you that the school would have had their asses sued off. Three cheers for the nanny state! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/24 "2009-11-22T18:33:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Three cheers for the nanny state! WTF? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/25 "2009-11-22T18:37:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > WTF? Guilty til proven innocent. Someone MIGHT (really low statistical probability) have gone on a rampage with the shotguns. Even though there is no evidence that: A) the student showed any sign of going on a rampage B) statistical evidence of shootings being on the fly, as usually they are planned C) people going on a rampage in a school with random weapons they just stole from someone’s truck off-campus. Basically the very fact of the guns existence is enough to assume that some kind of rampage is going to occur. So… Yay Nanny State! ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/26 "2009-11-22T18:46:14Z")
Did he consent to a search? I guess it was his mistake if he did. Otherwise, I can’t see how he could be subject to a search off school property. School rules and state law can’t supercede the 4th amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/27 "2009-11-22T18:47:01Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Guilty til proven innocent. > > Someone MIGHT (really low statistical probability) have gone on a rampage with the shotguns. > > Even though there is no evidence that: > > A) the student showed any sign of going on a rampage > B) statistical evidence of shootings being on the fly, as usually they are planned > C) people going on a rampage in a school with random weapons they just stole from someone’s truck off-campus. > > Basically the very fact of the guns existence is enough to assume that some kind of rampage is going to occur. > > So… > > Yay Nanny State! I’m sorry-did you accidentally post this here instead of some other message board? _Nobody_ has brought up the possibility of this student going on a rampage. I brought up the very real possibility of someone _else_ breaking into his truck, getting the shotguns and shells, and causing damage, and the almost certainty of the school getting sued if this were to happen. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/28 "2009-11-22T18:48:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m sorry-did you accidentally post this here instead of some other message board? _Nobody_ has brought up the possibility of this student going on a rampage. I brought up the very real possibility of someone _else_ breaking into his truck, getting the shotguns and shells, and causing damage, and the almost certainty of the school getting sued if this were to happen. Except that’s just some bullshit you simply made up and then got all uppity about. There is no reason to believe either that it would happen, or that the school would be blamed for it. I bet the school could successfully argue that the guns were stolen off campus. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/29 "2009-11-22T18:52:21Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > That much I will agree with. > > Not sure why you are siding with the school on this. I am not siding with anybody. I am saying the student will lose a law suit. ---
**Author:** ![Miltonyz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Miltonyz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miltonyz)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/30 "2009-11-22T18:55:02Z")
So does the schools zero-tolerance policy apply to drugs in students cars off campus? If a student has some aspirin or pot in their car withing 1000 feet of the school are they also subject to expulsion? I see this as a gross over reach by the school and bad zero tolerance policy. I find it troubling that the school feels it has the right to search cars and punish students so far from it’s borders. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/31 "2009-11-22T19:01:02Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Guilty til proven innocent. > > Someone MIGHT (really low statistical probability) have gone on a rampage with the shotguns. > > Even though there is no evidence that: > > A) the student showed any sign of going on a rampage > B) statistical evidence of shootings being on the fly, as usually they are planned > C) people going on a rampage in a school with random weapons they just stole from someone’s truck off-campus. > > Basically the very fact of the guns existence is enough to assume that some kind of rampage is going to occur. > > So… > > Yay Nanny State! It does not matter if these things are very unlikely. The particular situation of this student is irrelevant. For this rule to be struck down, the student is going to have to show there was no relation between the rule to prevent bringing guns within a 1000 feet (if that is distance the rule states) and school safety. Even the most remotely possible scenario where bringing a gun within 1000 feet of the school could led to an injury will justify this law. The student has no chance of winning a lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/32 "2009-11-22T19:02:29Z")
So the school hired scent sniffing dogs to smell around the neighborhood? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/33 "2009-11-22T19:03:11Z")
> [@Miltonyz](#): > > So does the schools zero-tolerance policy apply to drugs in students cars off campus? If a student has some aspirin or pot in their car withing 1000 feet of the school are they also subject to expulsion? I see this as a gross over reach by the school and bad zero tolerance policy. I find it troubling that the school feels it has the right to search cars and punish students so far from it’s borders. The search could raise other issues. But there is no indication of a search violation. I do not know what this schools drug policy is. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/34 "2009-11-22T19:04:20Z")
Since when do schools have the authority to pass regulations regarding something happening off of their property? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/35 "2009-11-22T19:11:10Z")
> [@tr0psn4j](#): > > So the school hired scent sniffing dogs to smell around the neighborhood? The article does not say. The police might just do this around the school. Probably not a violation under Illinois v. Caballes. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/36 "2009-11-22T19:14:25Z")
> [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > It does not matter if these things are very unlikely. The particular situation of this student is irrelevant. > > For this rule to be struck down, the student is going to have to show there was no relation between the rule to prevent bringing guns within a 1000 feet (if that is distance the rule states) and school safety. > > Even the most remotely possible scenario where bringing a gun within 1000 feet of the school could led to an injury will justify this law. > > The student has no chance of winning a lawsuit. You’re probably right, but that’s not what I was responding to. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/37 "2009-11-22T19:30:33Z")
First, the article does not state, but **Sage Rat** said above, that the vehicle was locked. The article did state that the student opened the vehicle for a search. These quotes from the article intrigued me: > [@](#): > > Geivett said the school was responsible for students traveling to and from school as well as during lunch. He said **he believed that students should not possess weapons within 1,000 feet of campus.** > > Geivett said **he believed off-campus parking around the school was under the school’s jurisdiction,** in part because it is primarily used by students. > > #### > > Geivett said the Education Code requires the school pursue expulsion, when a student is in possession of a firearm, knife or explosive without written permission from the school. He said he was concerned for the safety of students and staff. > > “Gary should’ve known better than to come to campus with guns in his truck,” Geivett said. > > In addition to the Education Code, the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995 bars possession of firearms within 1,000 feet of a school, \*\*but there are exceptions for private property and for lawful transportation of non-concealable weapons. \*\* On the one hand, the principal is acting on what he believes his authority extends to, then claiming he’s mandated to pursue expulsion. He’s talking about bringing weapons “on campus” and then extending “campus” to the surrounding area. The relevant Federal law makes clear exception for the shotguns in question – whether or not they were in fact locked in the truck, as **Sage Rat** avers. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/38 "2009-11-22T19:36:38Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You’re probably right, but that’s not what I was responding to. Nope, you were responding to claims that were never made. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/39 "2009-11-22T19:53:56Z")
**Polycarp** has it right. The principle has no authority here unless my reading of the law is wrong, and I’m pretty sure I am not wrong, since otherwise I would not be posting this. SInce I am posting this, I am therefore right. 😉 Seriously, first off, the law is barely Constitutional and probably could never be used to any public purpose. Frankly, it is an utter joke, although exactly why would be a pointless excercise here. The key passage is as follows: (1) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone. Exception: This does not include possession of a firearm on private property that is not part of school grounds or possession of a loaded firearm by an individual who is licensed to do so by the State. (i.e. a concealed carry, weapon, or firearm permit). The law does define the distance as 1000 ft from defined school grounds. However, it’s not clear how the personal property exemptionwould apply here. And as I mentioned, it’s utterly unprosecutable, so you will not see the law being used (which leads to the following…) And finally… _deep breath_ The law is entirely and competely effin irrelevant _anyway_! It has no moral or legal relationship with what the principle did, which was entirely under his own incompetently-used authority to punish high school students for anything he likes however he likes. > [@enipla](#): > > I’m a gun owner and a liberal. This kind of BS is just left over ‘homeland security’ garbage that GWB has left us with. > > ie. Nobody has any rights unless you can prove it. Guilty until proven innocent. > > Thanks George. This is factually incorrect and another excuse to wallow in political idiocy. Zero Tolerance policies began and developed at least during the Clinton administration and possibly even earlier. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/40 "2009-11-22T19:55:43Z")
I poked around on the [Willows Unified District](http://www.willowsunified.org/Board-of-Trustees/index.html) school board policy website which linked to CA policy website. Use name “willows” and PW “policymanual” to log on if you wish. I believe this is the policy they are referring to [Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995](http://gamutonline.net/displayPolicy/169652/index.html) [Here is a wiki on the GFSZA act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990) of 1990 and 1995 revision when it was ruled unconstitutional. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534.md?page=3)