# HS expels student for shotguns being in his truck \*off\* school property. Can they really do this? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534 "2009-11-22T16:42:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/61 "2009-11-23T00:46:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m sorry-did you accidentally post this here instead of some other message board? _Nobody_ has brought up the possibility of this student going on a rampage. But isn’t this the real reason for such prohibitions? The proximity to school, the opportunity and the possibility is what worries the administration. There’s nothing dangerous about carrying an unloaded gun down a crowded school hall. It’s only the _potential_ that scares people. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/62 "2009-11-23T00:54:45Z")
> [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > If there is no rule, the suspension is invalid. > > The interesting case is some vague (but not necessarily legally vague) rule about student safety. So you would be OK with the principal marching down to some students house and removing a gun because it might present a danger? Sorry, if the weapon is NOT on school grounds, and is stored in a legal manner in the vehicle there is no way that law is constitutional. IF the gun was stored in the car improperly, it is still NOT the schools business, but the business of the police, as they enforce the laws, and expulsion from school is NOT proper. Jail, perhaps, fine probably, confiscation of gun if that is written in the law, yes. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/63 "2009-11-23T02:04:52Z")
> [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > For this rule to be struck down, the student is going to have to show there was no relation between the rule to prevent bringing guns within a 1000 feet (if that is distance the rule states) and school safety. > > . Is it a rule - going by what’s been quoted in this thread so far the principal “believes”, not that it’s an actual rule… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/64 "2009-11-23T02:16:35Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Is it a rule - going by what’s been quoted in this thread so far the principal “believes”, not that it’s an actual rule… I am not sure if it is a rule, but the title of the thread asks if they can expel this student. If there is a properly enacted rule, the answer is yes. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/65 "2009-11-23T02:28:25Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > A lot of this doesn’t pass the sniff test. > > Consider two other equally plausible scenarios: 1.) Instead of a shotgun, it was a bunch of meth, in small bags. 2.) It was a known pedophile. > > I think that in either of those cases we’d be very quick to punish, and very quick to overlook the “not on school grounds” issue. > > The other issue to establish is if the principal has the _right_ to ban guns from his school, and if said principal has the _right_ to expel a student that violates that rule. If you’re arguing that the principal can’t ban guns, than the whole thing is moot. Stop twisting around behind your ideology and just say, “the whole thing is wrong because the principal can’t ban guns from school.” Which from what I can tell is exactly what Shodan regarded us with. > > It seems to me that when the kid uses the truck to drive to school and then parks near by, that might as well be school grounds. The kid drove the truck to school, ergo he took the gun to school. Saying the principal has no jurisdiction seems like a slap in the face. The truck could literally be across the street. So if we agree it would be wrong for the gun to be in the truck in the school parking lot, why is it such a stretch to say it’s wrong for the same gun to be across the street? > > The way I see it, the principal has a responsibility to the property, and to the students. His job doesn’t end the second the kids cross the street. Which is why if it was just some dude that lived across the street, it has nothing to do with the principal. > > As far as I can tell, the principal is trying to do is job, and at the very least did a bad job of it. But it seems under the law it makes sense that it would carry forward the idea that: > a) he can expel a kid that brings a gun into the school, > b) he can expel a kid that brings the gun onto school property > c) he can expel a kid that has guns in his car on school property > d) he can expel a kid that came to school with guns and parked across the street. > > Basically, if you don’t believe (a) the rest is pointless, argue that. > > And one final point, if a bully was terrorizing students, follow the same a -\> d path. Expel the kid in the school, or on the property, and carry it forward to expel the kid if he thinks he’s clever by going across the street. I do not come from the US Where I grew up kids often walked to school, biked to school or drove to school. The school was only responsible for us once we stepped on school property - or onto school organised transport. Outside of that, how we got to school was our problem. If we wanted to drive, and leave our vehicle outside school property it wasn’t the school’s business. Going shooting before school, and leaving the gun in the car would be our business - or the relevant law enforcement agencies. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/66 "2009-11-23T02:28:30Z")
> [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > I am not sure if it is a rule, but the title of the thread asks if they can expel this student. If there is a \*\*properly \*\*enacted rule, the answer is yes. Bolding mine. Good grief. Isnt that the whole damn point of contention here ? Or are you saying if the school board enacted a law saying wearing pink was automatic reason for expulsion and someone wore pink and they were expelled it would all be good because thems the rules? Just cause some dipshits make up a rule and follow it dont mean diddly IMO (and probably just about everybody else for that matter). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/67 "2009-11-23T02:31:48Z")
> **[Law and American Education](https://books.google.com/books?id=tljiGyWBnpAC&printsec=frontcover&client=firefox-a&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false)** > > There is a sizable body of school law with which educators should be familiar if they wish to conduct themselves in a legally acceptable manner. Those educators who 'fly by the seat of their pants' may be in difficulty if sufficient thought is not... Go to page 76. The last paragraph of 77 gives a good overview. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/68 "2009-11-23T02:31:59Z")
It’s tiring to see small minded people bend and reinterpret the intent of law. Yes, intent. What we need are people that can actually think on their feet. It’s clear that the principal of Willow CA high school can’t. If he/she could, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/69 "2009-11-23T02:38:17Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Bolding mine. > > Good grief. > > Isnt that the whole damn point of contention here ? > > Or are you saying if the school board enacted a law saying wearing pink was automatic reason for expulsion and someone wore pink and they were expelled it would all be good because thems the rules? > > Just cause some dipshits make up a rule and follow it dont mean diddly IMO (and probably just about everybody else for that matter). I meant passed by proper procedures. The standard courts will hold this rule to is arbitrary and capricious standard. For this rule to be struck down, the student is going to have to show there was no relation between the rule to prevent bringing guns within a 1000 feet (if that is distance the rule states) and school safety. For the “pink rule,” if the reason was safety, the rule would almost certainly be arbitrary and capricious. But are you suggesting there is no relation between bringing a gun near campus and school safety? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/70 "2009-11-23T02:50:06Z")
> [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > [Law and American Education: A Case Brief Approach - Robert Palestini, Karen Palestini Falk - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=tljiGyWBnpAC&printsec=frontcover&client=firefox-a&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false) > > Go to page 76. The last paragraph of 77 gives a good overview. THOSE are the same as legal and nonviolent or ill intended or threatening possesion of a gun ? A stabbing and purposeful wreckless driving involving a school bus are the same as legal and responsible gun possesion ? REALLY? please. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/71 "2009-11-23T02:54:04Z")
I am trying to find an online cite, and the met-analysis on page 77 gives the general state of the law. Courts will approve the discipline if the student’s action threatened the efficient operation of the school. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/72 "2009-11-23T03:04:37Z")
> [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > No, but the students might have to. I guess this is my point of contention. By what authority can school rules and policies extend beyond the physical boundaries of the school and/or a school-sponsored event? I get that if this was a law the kid violated (guns within 1000 ft. of a school) then he could be criminally charged, but how does a principal and his minion of bureaucratic policies have any effect on a public street outside of school property? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/73 "2009-11-23T03:17:00Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I guess this is my point of contention. By what authority can school rules and policies extend beyond the physical boundaries of the school and/or a school-sponsored event? > > I get that if this was a law the kid violated (guns within 1000 ft. of a school) then he could be criminally charged, but how does a principal and his minion of bureaucratic policies have any effect on a public street outside of school property? Because the state has given them the power and the courts have approved (provided there is a relation to school). [http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/edu/ed370/ABSTRACTS%2001/harris.html](http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/edu/ed370/ABSTRACTS%2001/harris.html) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/74 "2009-11-23T03:28:20Z")
Student disciplined for blogging “jamfest is cancelled due to douchebags in central office” and that readers should contact the superintendent “to piss her off more.” Upheld by 2nd Circuit. > **[2nd Circuit Upholds Discipline for Student's Off-Campus Speech](https://www.edweek.org/education/2nd-circuit-upholds-discipline-for-students-off-campus-speech/2008/05)** > > A federal appeals court has ruled that a student's off-campus blog remarks created a "foreseeable risk of substantial disruption" at her high school and thus she was not entitled to a preliminary injunction reversing her discipline. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/75 "2009-11-23T03:28:48Z")
> [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > Because the state has given them the power and the courts have approved (provided there is a relation to school). > > [http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/edu/ed370/ABSTRACTS%2001/harris.html](http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/edu/ed370/ABSTRACTS%2001/harris.html) IANAL, so bear with me, but it seems in that situation the school is right because the threat could be seen as ongoing. The student may have posted that to his website while he was at home, but the sentiment of the message could reasonably and logically continue onto school property. In this case it is clear that the kid had no intention of bringing the guns onto school property and didn’t intend to commit any kind of violence (except to the birds earlier that morning). The idea that they were “close” to school is pretty silly, and is a never-ending slippery slope. Pass a policy against having guns within 10 miles of school, and when a kid has one 10 miles and 10 feet from school, use that as evidence that he “could” have brought them into the 10 mile zone. You said that such a policy has to have a “relation to the school”. I fail to see any in this case. The sad part is that the principal seems to know the kid. Said that “Gary should have known better.” It seems silly to turn his life upside down for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/76 "2009-11-23T03:38:34Z")
The rule does not have to relate to the school in this particular situation. The rule in general has to have a relation to the efficient operation of the school. Do you deny that a rule about bringing guns within a thousand feet of a school relates to the operation of the school (including student safety)? And the bringing the gun probably interfered with the efficient operation in this case. Once the dog hit on the gun, the principal and others probably had to deal with the situation. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/77 "2009-11-23T04:09:06Z")
> [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > The rule does not have to relate to the school in this particular situation. The rule in general has to have a relation to the efficient operation of the school. Do you deny that a rule about bringing guns within a thousand feet of a school relates to the operation of the school (including student safety)? If you write a rule broadly enough, you can always find a relationship. Write a rule prohibiting guns within a million light years of the school, and sure, that “relates to the operation of the school” but I fail to see any meaningful relationship to how guns outside of school property affect what goes on inside the school. What policy wouldn’t pass muster under this standard? Mandate that all children be in bed asleep by 9pm as this would assure better learning? > [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > And the bringing the gun probably interfered with the efficient operation in this case. Once the dog hit on the gun, the principal and others probably had to deal with the situation. Well, now you are just being facetious. The school decided to go off property and conduct a search. If it interfered with their “efficient operation” it was their fault. I guess if they go to Timbuktu and start looking for stuff it is the fault of the people in Timbuktu for interfering with the school’s efficient operation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Cleveland_Steamer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/78 "2009-11-23T04:25:39Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Well, now you are just being facetious. The school decided to go off property and conduct a search. If it interfered with their “efficient operation” it was their fault. I guess if they go to Timbuktu and start looking for stuff it is the fault of the people in Timbuktu for interfering with the school’s efficient operation. How do you know the school initiated the dog search? And the school (and state) do not have authority over the people of Timbuktu. > [@](#): > > What policy wouldn’t pass muster under this standard? Almost all policies pass muster. A student was punished for a rude blog post. (Approved by the 2nd Circuit) > [@](#): > > Write a rule prohibiting guns within a million light years of the school, and sure, that “relates to the operation of the school” but I fail to see any meaningful relationship to how guns outside of school property affect what goes on inside the school. I don’t know what distance the courts will allow, but 1000 feet is going to be approved. And the relationship does not have to meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/79 "2009-11-23T04:47:49Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > So you would be OK with the principal marching down to some students house and removing a gun because it might present a danger? > > Sorry, if the weapon is NOT on school grounds, and is stored in a legal manner in the vehicle there is no way that law is constitutional. > > IF the gun was stored in the car improperly, it is still NOT the schools business, but the business of the police, as they enforce the laws, and expulsion from school is NOT proper. Jail, perhaps, fine probably, confiscation of gun if that is written in the law, yes. Are you saying that this expulsion is not constitutional – that if the student sued, he’d clearly win, or are you saying that even though the constitution is interpreted to permit this, it shouldn’t be? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534/80 "2009-11-23T04:58:52Z")
Quoth **jtgain** : > [@](#): > > I guess this is my point of contention. By what authority can school rules and policies extend beyond the physical boundaries of the school and/or a school-sponsored event? By the authority that it’s their school. A school can, in fact, make rules about what is and is not acceptable behavior by the students off of school grounds. They don’t have the authority to arrest students for noncompliance with those rules, but the do have the authority to give administrative punishments like detentions, suspensions, and yes, even expulsions. Were this a private school, and the rule clearly laid out in advance, then there’d be no issue here. Maybe some folks would think that the school chose the wrong response, but the recourse for that is to choose to not send your kids there, and maybe write an angry letter to the newspaper about it. Here, though, the question is, first, whether the school had a clear rule against this in advance, and second, being a public school, whether they have the prerogative to pass rules of this scope. And the recourse for those two questions lies in a courtroom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hs-expels-student-for-shotguns-being-in-his-truck-off-school-property-can-they-really-do-this/518534.md?page=5)