# Hubris: The Iraq War **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759 "2013-02-19T02:07:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/21 "2013-02-19T14:36:25Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > “News” purported to be without bias that is slanted strongly one way is as bad as if slanted the other. Your support of that position doesn’t make it right. > > If it was Fox grinding the ax your boxers or panties (as the case may be) would be in a bunch. The facts are in already thanks. And in this case they have that well-known liberal bias. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/22 "2013-02-19T14:36:41Z")
_Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction._[RIGHT] **Dick Cheney** [Speech to VFW National Convention](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/08/20020826.html) August 26, 2002[/RIGHT] \*Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons. \* [RIGHT] **George W. Bush** [Speech to UN General Assembly](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020912-1.html) September 12, 2002[/RIGHT] _If he declares he has none, then we will know that Saddam Hussein is once again misleading the world._ [RIGHT] **Ari Fleischer** [Press Briefing](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/12/20021202-6.html) December 2, 2002[/RIGHT] _We know for a fact that there are weapons there._ [RIGHT] **Ari Fleischer** [Press Briefing](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030109-8.html) January 9, 2003[/RIGHT] \*Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. \* [RIGHT] **George W. Bush** [State of the Union Address](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html) January 28, 2003[/RIGHT] _We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make more._ [RIGHT] **Colin Powell** [Remarks to UN Security Council](http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2003/17300.htm) February 5, 2003[/RIGHT] _We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons – the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have._ [RIGHT]\*\*George W. Bush \*\* [Radio Address](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030208.html) February 8, 2003[/RIGHT] _If Iraq had disarmed itself, gotten rid of its weapons of mass destruction over the past 12 years, or over the last several months since (UN Resolution) 1441 was enacted, we would not be facing the crisis that we now have before us . . . But the suggestion that we are doing this because we want to go to every country in the Middle East and rearrange all of its pieces is not correct._ [RIGHT] **Colin Powell** [Interview with Radio France International](http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2003/18094.htm) February 28, 2003[/RIGHT] _So has the strategic decision been made to disarm Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction by the leadership in Baghdad? . . . I think our judgment has to be clearly not._ [RIGHT] **Colin Powell** [Remarks to UN Security Council](http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2003/18458.htm) March 7, 2003[/RIGHT] _Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised._ [RIGHT] **George W. Bush** [Address to the Nation](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030317-7.html) March 17, 2003[/RIGHT] _Well, there is no question that we have evidence and information that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical particularly . . . all this will be made clear in the course of the operation, for whatever duration it takes._ [RIGHT] **Ari Fleisher** [Press Briefing](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030321-9.html) March 21, 2003[/RIGHT] _There is no doubt that the regime of Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction. And . . . as this operation continues, those weapons will be identified, found, along with the people who have produced them and who guard them._ [RIGHT] **Gen. Tommy Franks** [Press Conference](http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/03032203.htm) March 22, 2003[/RIGHT] \*I have no doubt we’re going to find big stores of weapons of mass destruction. \* [RIGHT]Defense Policy Board member **Kenneth Adelman** [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A12217-2003Mar22¬Found=true), p. A27 March 23, 2003[/RIGHT] _One of our top objectives is to find and destroy the WMD. There are a number of sites._ [RIGHT]Pentagon Spokeswoman **Victoria Clark** [Press Briefing](http://www.dod.gov/news/Mar2003/t03222003_t0322osdpa.html) March 22, 2003[/RIGHT] _We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat._ [RIGHT] **Donald Rumsfeld** [ABC Interview](http://www.dod.gov/news/Mar2003/t03302003_t0330sdabcsteph.html) March 30, 2003[/RIGHT] \*Obviously the administration intends to publicize all the weapons of mass destruction U.S. forces find – and there will be plenty. \* [RIGHT]Neocon scholar **Robert Kagan** [Washington Post op-ed](http://www.ceip.org/files/Publications/2003-04-08-kaganpost.asp?p=11&from=pubdate) April 9, 2003[/RIGHT] _But make no mistake – as I said earlier – we have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was about and it is about. And we have high confidence it will be found._ [RIGHT] **Ari Fleischer** [Press Briefing](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/04/20030410-6.html) April 10, 2003[/RIGHT] _We are learning more as we interrogate or have discussions with Iraqi scientists and people within the Iraqi structure, that perhaps he destroyed some, perhaps he dispersed some. And so we will find them._ [RIGHT] **George W. Bush** [NBC Interview](http://www.talkingproud.us/EditorChoice042603.html) April 24, 2003[/RIGHT] _There are people who in large measure have information that we need . . . so that we can track down the weapons of mass destruction in that country._ [RIGHT] **Donald Rumsfeld** [Press Briefing](http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2003/tr20030425-secdef0126.html) April 25, 2003[/RIGHT] _We’ll find them. It’ll be a matter of time to do so._ [RIGHT] **George W. Bush** [Remarks to Reporters](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/05/20030503-1.html) May 3, 2003[/RIGHT] \*I’m absolutely sure that there are weapons of mass destruction there and the evidence will be forthcoming. We’re just getting it just now. \* [RIGHT] **Colin Powell** [Remarks to Reporters](http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2003/20166.htm) May 4, 2003[/RIGHT] _We never believed that we’d just tumble over weapons of mass destruction in that country._ [RIGHT] **Donald Rumsfeld** [Fox News Interview](http://www.dod.gov/transcripts/2003/tr20030504-secdef0153.html) May 4, 2003[/RIGHT] \*I’m not surprised if we begin to uncover the weapons program of Saddam Hussein – because he had a weapons program. \* [RIGHT] **George W. Bush** [Remarks to Reporters](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/05/20030506-3.html) May 6, 2003[/RIGHT] _U.S. officials never expected that “we were going to open garages and find” weapons of mass destruction._ [RIGHT] **Condoleeza Rice** [Reuters Interview](http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=2741627) May 12, 2003[/RIGHT] _I just don’t know whether it was all destroyed years ago – I mean, there’s no question that there were chemical weapons years ago – whether they were destroyed right before the war, (or) whether they’re still hidden._ [RIGHT] **Maj. Gen. David Petraeus,** Commander 101st Airborne [Press Briefing](http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2003/tr20030513-0181.html) May 13, 2003[/RIGHT] _Before the war, there’s no doubt in my mind that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical. I expected them to be found. I still expect them to be found._ [RIGHT] **Gen. Michael Hagee** , Commandant of the Marine Corps [Interview with Reporters](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40B10FD345A0C718EDDAC0894DB404482) May 21, 2003[/RIGHT] _Given time, given the number of prisoners now that we’re interrogating, I’m confident that we’re going to find weapons of mass destruction._ [RIGHT] **Gen. Richard Myers** , Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff [NBC Today Show interview](http://www.msnbc.com/local/wilx/generalcothe.asp) May 26, 2003[/RIGHT] _They may have had time to destroy them, and I don’t know the answer._ [RIGHT] **Donald Rumsfeld** [Remarks to the Council on Foreign Relations](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51355-2003May28.html?nav=hptop_ts) May 27, 2003[/RIGHT] _For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction (as justification for invading Iraq) because it was the one reason everyone could agree on._ [RIGHT] **Paul Wolfowitz** [\*Vanity Fair \*interview](http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2003/tr20030528-depsecdef0222.html) May 28, 2003[/RIGHT] \*It was a surprise to me then — it remains a surprise to me now — that we have not uncovered weapons, as you say, in some of the forward dispersal sites. Believe me, it’s not for lack of trying. We’ve been to virtually every ammunition supply point between the Kuwaiti border and Baghdad, but they’re simply not there. \* [RIGHT] **Lt. Gen. James Conway, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force** [Press Interview](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=3&u=/ap/20030530/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_marines) May 30, 2003[/RIGHT] \*Do I think we’re going to find something? Yeah, I kind of do, because I think there’s a lot of information out there." \* **Maj. Gen. Keith Dayton, Defense Intelligence Agency** [Press Conference](http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2003/tr20030530-0231.html) May 30, 2003 ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/23 "2013-02-19T14:37:26Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > [http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/downandoutinsaigon/absolutjusticesmg.jpg](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/downandoutinsaigon/absolutjusticesmg.jpg) Hey - where’s my boy? Where’s Blair? And remember -as Red Fury used to point out - when they went in they went in with no units designated to seize the alleged weapons. none went to the supposed known sites. They knew they were none. WMD’s were just one of the many handfuls of shit they threw at the wall of public opinion by The Office of Special Plans to see what would stick. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/24 "2013-02-19T14:41:32Z")
“Of course it’s about oil, it’s very much about oil, and we can’t really deny that. From the standpoint of a solider who’s now fought in the middle east for six years – my son-in-law’s fought there for four years, my daughter’s been over there, my son has served the nation – my family has been fighting for a long time.” – Gen. John Abizaid, former commander of CENTCOM, October 13, 2007. (Watch Abizaid say this [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sd2JseupXQ&t=21m45s).) ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/25 "2013-02-19T14:44:34Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Hey - where’s my boy? Where’s Blair? > > And remember -as Red Fury used to point out - when they went in they went in with no units designated to seize the alleged weapons. none went to the supposed known sites. They knew they were none. WMD’s were just one of the many handfuls of shit they threw at the wall of public opinion by The Office of Special Plans to see what would stick. Blair is halfway along the back row sitting next to Jack Straw. They didn’t even bother securing one of Iraq’s weapons depots when they invaded. The only thing in the entire country they did secure was the Oil Ministry. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/26 "2013-02-19T14:46:44Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > How can they live with knowing what they have done? More than twice as many American died in Iraq than were killed on 9-11 – not to mention the slaughter and displacement of the Iraqis. Rumsfeld deliberately sat down with talking points about how to start the war. They became terrorists themselves. Why have they not been tried as traitors? Because they didn’t commit treason, which is well defined in the constitution. We’ve had entire threads devoted to this in the past. Did you miss them? As for the “crimes against peace”, you’d have to try every Congresscritter, including HR Clinton and John Kerry, who authorized the war. And seeing as how the US is not a party to the World Court, you’d have to make this charge in the US Court system. It would never stand. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/27 "2013-02-19T14:48:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And seeing as how the US is not a party to the World Court, you’d have to make this charge in the US Court system. It would never stand. Fucking rogue nations, eh? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/28 "2013-02-19T14:48:55Z")
Robert Kagan link gets a 404. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/29 "2013-02-19T14:50:46Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Robert Kagan link gets a 404. I probably made it up then. I’m guessing a lot of those links don’t work now. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/30 "2013-02-19T14:54:45Z")
I’ve always wondered if part of our reluctance to try US Presidents is because we don’t want to perpetuate the idea that every new administration can / should try to attack and imprison the previous administration. This is why many governments around the world are so unstable… every leader knows he will be killed or imprisoned by his successor, so they go to great lengths to cling to power as long as possible. So we hand out pardons to people like Nixon in order to preserve the peaceful transition of power that is so essential to running an effective democracy. Now, I’m not saying this is a good thing. I personally believe everyone should be held accountable, Bush and company included. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/31 "2013-02-19T14:59:37Z")
Hey, Mr. Dastardly-- you forgot this one: “Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said she is not sorry she voted for a resolution authorizing President Bush to take military action in Iraq despite the recent problems there but she does regret ‘the way the president used the authority.’” **Hillary Clinton, April 2004.** That was 1 year after the invasion, btw. Now, this charge of “crimes against peace”-- is it only to be leveled against Republicans? I asked about LBJ, above, and got no answer. Should he have been so tried? Obviously, he is dead now, and can’t be, but should he have been? How about Bill Clinton? Was Yugoslavia a threat to the US when he spent almost 3 months bombing the bejesus out of part of that country? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/32 "2013-02-19T14:59:55Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Blair is halfway along the back row sitting next to Jack Straw. Hurrah! ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/33 "2013-02-19T15:03:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Hey, Mr. Dastardly-- you forgot this one: > > “Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said she is not sorry she voted for a resolution authorizing President Bush to take military action in Iraq despite the recent problems there but she does regret ‘the way the president used the authority.’” **Hillary Clinton, April 2004.** > > That was 1 year after the invasion, btw. > > Now, this charge of “crimes against peace”-- is it only to be leveled against Republicans? I asked about LBJ, above, and got no answer. Should he have been so tried? Obviously, he is dead now, and can’t be, but should he have been? How about Bill Clinton? Was Yugoslavia a threat to the US when he spent almost 3 months bombing the bejesus out of part of that country? Let’s throw every single one of those criminal motherfuckers in jail. That’s fine with me. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/34 "2013-02-19T15:08:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Now, this charge of “crimes against peace”-- is it only to be leveled against Republicans? I asked about LBJ, above, and got no answer. LBJ and Clinton intervened in ongoing civil wars, they didn’t start wars of aggression, which is what Bush, Blair et al were guilty of. LBJ did concoct a pretext for escalating an ongoing US participation and that was dispicable. LBJ, Nixon and Kissinger are war criminals in morality if not legal fact though and I’d have been happy to see them all hanged. And Crimes Against Peace is a legal term so requires no snarky ‘’ > [@](#): > > The U.S. Army’s Law of Land Warfare (Field Manual 27-10) states: > > ``` > 498. Crimes Under International Law Any person, whether a member of the armed forces or a civilian, who commits an act which constitutes a crime under international law is responsible therefore and liable to punishment. Such offenses in connection with war comprise: > > a. Crimes against peace. > b. Crimes against humanity. > c. War crimes. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/35 "2013-02-19T15:15:51Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > It’s inconceivable to me that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld haven’t been tried for war crimes. If not them, who? If not now, when? The five permanent members of the UN make the rules they are legislator, police, judge and jury - it should be less inconceivable now. The game is rigged more than almost any other. Bush bought his mandate at the UN, interpreting R1441 accordingly. And don’t forget how those who opposed invasion were mocked on this board and in the US - ‘old Europe’, ‘cheese-eating surrender monkeys’, surrender fries, etc, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/36 "2013-02-19T15:20:26Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Bush bought his mandate at the UN, interpreting R1441 accordingly. War looms as Bush issues final warning By Dana Milbank and Mike Allen Washington Post WASHINGTON — President Bush vowed yesterday to attack Iraq with the “full force and might” of the U.S. military if Saddam Hussein does not flee within 48 hours, setting the nation on an almost certain course to war. Bush delivered the ultimatum hours after his administration earlier in the day admitted failure in its months-long effort to win the blessing of the U.N. Security Council to forcibly disarm the Iraqi leader. The United Nations ordered its inspectors and humanitarian personnel out of Iraq, and Bush urged foreign nationals to leave the country immediately. [SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif][..][/SIZE][/FONT] Bush presented grim images of the danger of terrorist strikes on U.S. soil that could kill hundreds of thousands. “We choose to meet that threat now, where it arises, before it can appear suddenly in our skies and cities,” he said. He spoke darkly of acting “before the day of horror can come.” [SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif][..][/SIZE][/FONT] Earlier in the day, British and U.S. diplomats, facing certain defeat on the Security Council, withdrew a resolution that would have cleared the way for war. Though Bush on Sunday vowed another day of “working the phones,” it quickly became clear that as many as 11 of 15 council members remained opposed and the effort was abandoned by 10 a.m. The withdrawal of the resolution without a vote was a double climb-down for Bush. On Feb. 22, he had predicted victory at the United Nations, and on March 6 he said he wanted a vote regardless of the outcome. [SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif][.][/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif][SIZE=2][COLOR=black]Bush defiantly asserted a right to attack Iraq, even without sanction from the Security Council. “The United States of America has the sovereign authority to use force in assuring its own national security,” he said. “The United States and our allies are authorized to use force in ridding Iraq of weapons of mass destruction. This is not a question of authority. It is a question of will.”[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif][SIZE=2][COLOR=black][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif][War looms as Bush issues final warning | The Honolulu Advertiser | Hawaii's Newspaper](http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2003/Mar/18/ln/ln11a.html) [/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif] [/SIZE][/FONT] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/37 "2013-02-19T15:39:50Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > LBJ and Clinton intervened in ongoing civil wars, they didn’t start wars of aggression, which is what Bush, Blair et al were guilty of.’ A distinction without a difference. The US was an aggressor. But maybe I missed the part of the definition of “crimes against peace” where it says "except when a government decides, without UN authorization or the authorization of its own legislature, to bomb the shit out of a country which may or may not be in a state of civil war’. Can you provide the missing pieces? Besides, if you want to pull the civil war defense, one can argue that the US had thwarted a civil war with the no-fly zone, and was under no obligation to continue it indefinitely. It chose instead to act on the side of the oppressed and engage in regime change. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/38 "2013-02-19T15:39:51Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Earlier in the day, British and U.S. diplomats, facing certain defeat on the Security Council, withdrew a resolution that would have cleared the way for war. Though Bush on Sunday vowed another day of “working the phones,” it quickly became clear that as many as 11 of 15 council members remained opposed and the effort was abandoned by 10 a.m. > > The withdrawal of the resolution without a vote was a double climb-down for Bush. On Feb. 22, he had predicted victory at the United Nations, and on March 6 he said he wanted a vote regardless of the outcome. Yes, remember how the UN suddenly became an ‘irrelevant institution’? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/39 "2013-02-19T16:05:28Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Yes, remember how the UN suddenly became an ‘irrelevant institution’? That was in 1945 right? Yes, we did it. We just openly started a war, manufacturing a cause, and wading in. It was justified with lies, and quisling politicians like John Kerry and Hillary Clinton gave it the nod to protect their own careers. And we were wrong. And the chances of ever doing anything about it in any organized justice system are absolutely zero. No one will be prosecuted for commiting torture or murder (except maybe a couple of low level grunts). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/40 "2013-02-19T16:14:09Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Yes, remember how the UN suddenly became an ‘irrelevant institution’? [I sure do!](http://earthhopenetwork.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=147) > [@](#): > > Others argue that we should work through the United Nations and should only resort to force if and when the United Nations Security Council approves it. This too has great appeal for different reasons. The UN deserves our support. Whenever possible we should work through it and strengthen it, for it enables the world to share the risks and burdens of global security and when it acts, it confers a legitimacy that increases the likelihood of long-term success. The UN can help lead the world into a new era of global cooperation and the United States should support that goal. > > But there are problems with this approach as well. The United Nations is an organization that is still growing and maturing. It often lacks the cohesion to enforce its own mandates. And when Security Council members use the veto, on occasion, for reasons of narrow-minded interests, it cannot act. In Kosovo, the Russians did not approve NATO military action because of political, ethnic, and religious ties to the Serbs. The United States therefore could not obtain a Security Council resolution in favor of the action necessary to stop the dislocation and ethnic cleansing of more than a million Kosovar Albanians. However, most of the world was with us because there was a genuine emergency with thousands dead and a million driven from their homes. As soon as the American-led conflict was over, Russia joined the peacekeeping effort that is still underway. > > In the case of Iraq, recent comments indicate that one or two Security Council members might never approve force against Saddam Hussein until he has actually used chemical, biological, or God forbid, nuclear weapons. From Hillary Clinton’s Senate floor speech prior to her vote on the AUMF. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759.md?page=3)