# Hubris: The Iraq War **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759 "2013-02-19T02:07:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/41 "2013-02-19T16:16:52Z")
Let’s start at the top–Bush first, Cheney second…Clinton about 329th, \*\*John Mace \*\*15,697,056th, me 41,056,838th, etc. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/42 "2013-02-19T16:19:34Z")
If a Nation is not acting in self-defense or does not have specific UN authorization, then that Nation is starting an illegal war. It doesn’t matter what the individual Nations thinks or votes on. To get around that glaring fact, the US contends they were fulfilling the UN resolution from the first Gulf War which Iraq was now (in 2002) in violation of (among other just as tenuous arguments). That’s weak of course, but shows you the lengths the US will go to be in “compliance” with the UN. I also doubt that argument would stop anyone from prosecuting the US if anyone wanted to. Nations (not individuals) are tried in the International Court of Justice, an arm of the UN. I do not believe they have been asked or have stated whether the Second Gulf War was an illegal war. People have, but not the UN/ICJ as a body. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/43 "2013-02-19T16:19:52Z")
What’s with you and Hillary Clinton, **John**? You just keep bringing her up specifically. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/44 "2013-02-19T16:21:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A distinction without a difference. The US was an aggressor. > > But maybe I missed the part of the definition of “crimes against peace” where it says "except when a government decides, without UN authorization or the authorization of its own legislature, to bomb the shit out of a country which may or may not be in a state of civil war’. > > Can you provide the missing pieces? > > Besides, if you want to pull the civil war defense, one can argue that the US had thwarted a civil war with the no-fly zone, and was under no obligation to continue it indefinitely. It chose instead to act on the side of the oppressed and engage in regime change. I’m going to pretend, just for the sake of argument only, that you aren’t just doing your usual ‘my side, my side’ handwaving and point out that the USA considered South Vietnam a real country. They did not attack South Vietnam, they went to war to ‘defend’ them. Although the whole thing was a war crime in any meaningful sense, the USA did not ‘launch a war of aggression’. It was meeting its SEATO obligations and so was covered as ‘an exercise of collective self-defense’. And as you well know, armed intervention to prevent genocide is not considered a Crime Against Peace. Article 1 of the Genocide Convention permits intervention to prevent genocide. International Law is not a gotcha invented to nail your team. It’s just your team in the USA and ‘my team’ in the UK who are the ones who did the\*\* particular example being discussed in this thread\*\*. I don’t care whose fracking ‘team’ was involved and the thread in not about Vietnam, Bosnia or the War of Jenkins Ear or whatever. Iraq is the clearest, most blatant example of a war of aggression as technically defined in my life time. It was so blatant it could not be driven through the gaping loopholes that allow all kinds of unjust wars. But if I could bring back LBJ, Nixon and Macnamara and dig Kissinger out of whatever rock he’s under I’m sure there’s a bunch of stuff they should be charged with other than Crimes Against Peace (although that would cover Cambodia for N & K I think). And just to head off your next game - yea - I think Obama’s use of drones is a crime and he should be tried for it at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/45 "2013-02-19T16:24:37Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Let’s start at the top–Bush first, Cheney second…Clinton about 329th, \*\*John Mace \*\*15,697,056th, me 41,056,838th, etc. Bush jr. isn’t the top. It’s the Cheny-Rumsfeld-Bush sr-et altra cabal that was in power since Reagan. Bush Jr was just their front-man for the period 2002-2008. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/46 "2013-02-19T16:27:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Besides, if you want to pull the civil war defense, one can argue that the US had thwarted a civil war with the no-fly zone, and was under no obligation to continue it indefinitely. It chose instead to act on the side of the oppressed and engage in regime change. That was UN authorised NATO enforced. Again, as you well know. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/47 "2013-02-19T16:29:30Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Bush jr. isn’t the top. It’s the Cheny-Rumsfeld-Bush sr-et altra cabal that was in power since Reagan. Bush Jr was just their front-man for the period 2002-2008. Who was the front man in 2001? Lost my scorecard. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/48 "2013-02-19T16:34:08Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I’m going to pretend, just for the sake of argument only, that you aren’t just doing your usual ‘my side, my side’ handwaving and point out that the USA considered South Vietnam a real country. I was never in support of the Iraq war. Not before and not after. My side is the side with facts, though, and I don’t just mindlessly support anyone on “my side” who is posting factually incorrect information. > [@](#): > > They did not attack South Vietnam, they went to war to ‘defend’ them. Although the whole thing was a war crime in any meaningful sense, the USA did not ‘launch a war of aggression’. It was meeting its SEATO obligations and so was covered as ‘an exercise of collective self-defense’. > > And as you well know, armed intervention to prevent genocide is not considered a Crime Against Peace. Article 1 of the Genocide Convention permits intervention to prevent genocide. > > International Law is not a gotcha invented to nail your team. It’s just your team in the USA and ‘my team’ in the UK who are the ones who did the\*\* particular example being discussed in this thread\*\*. I don’t care whose fracking ‘team’ was involved and the thread in not about Vietnam, Bosnia or the War of Jenkins Ear or whatever. > > Iraq is the clearest, most blatant example of a war of aggression as technically defined in my life time. It was so blatant it could not be driven through the gaping loopholes that allow all kinds of unjust wars. > > But if I could bring back LBJ, Nixon and Macnamara and dig Kissinger out of whatever rock he’s under I’m sure there’s a bunch of stuff they should be charged with other than Crimes Against Peace (although that would cover Cambodia for N & K I think). > > And just to head off your next game - yea - I think Obama’s use of drones is a crime and he should be tried for it at some point. The idea that there was “genocide” going on in either case is not a factual statement. And just who, if not the UN Security Council, can legally make that judgement, if we’re talking about international law? The UN Charter is quite clear about the use of force, and it is not permitted without UNSC authorization except when a nation is under imminent threat of attack. > [@](#): > > That was UN authorised NATO enforced. Again, as you well know. Of course I know that. So what? The US was not obligated to continue doing it indefinitely, as I said. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/49 "2013-02-19T16:40:16Z")
At any rate, to prevent further hijacking of this thread, unless Ms. Maddow has proposed that Bush et al be tried for crimes against peace, it’s probably better to either let that discussion die, or open a separate thread to discuss it. **Tagos** , feel free to do the latter if you like. I won’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/50 "2013-02-19T16:43:43Z")
How the world cringed: Colin Powell’s UN Speech on Iraq: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Nt5RZ6ukbNc/hqdefault.jpg "General Colin Powell UN Speech on Iraq Part 1of5") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt5RZ6ukbNc) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/51 "2013-02-19T16:55:44Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > How the world cringed: Colin Powell’s UN Speech on Iraq: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt5RZ6ukbNc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt5RZ6ukbNc) I watched that live. I couldn’t believe my eyes or ears, it was that bad. Lost a lot of respect for him that day, I did. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/52 "2013-02-19T19:09:10Z")
Question: What was the expected endstate for the WMD claims? Did they have an excuse for their failure prepared at any point? Or did they just expect everyone would shrug and move along and ask no questions? (As they have never faced the consequences of their decision, it appears their hubris was justified.) ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/53 "2013-02-19T19:11:13Z")
They’re claiming basically that they were right, but their intelligence was bad. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/54 "2013-02-19T19:21:04Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > They’re claiming basically that they were right, but their intelligence was bad. I don’t understand. If they knew the information was false to begin with then they would have to know the deceit would eventually be unsupportable. That means they would have planned the “morally right, information wrong” non-argument from the beginning and just hoped it played well with the masses. Unless there’s some part of this I’m still missing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/55 "2013-02-19T19:22:19Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > Question: > > What was the expected endstate for the WMD claims? Did they have an excuse for their failure prepared at any point? Or did they just expect everyone would shrug and move along and ask no questions? I think the most parsimonious answer is that they really thought they’d find “something”. They thought that Blix was incompetent, and they were sure SH was playing a cat and mouse game, moving stuff around or hiding it in presidential palaces or whatever. But the whole WMDs things was red herring all along. Who the hell doesn’t have “WMDs” of some sort? That’s a term so vague that it can easily be made to fit almost any circumstance. And they could always fall back on the fact that not only was SH supposed to destroy all his WMDs, but he was supposed to account for their destruction, too. And he hadn’t. It might not even have been possible to do so, but that didn’t matter. They wanted to invade Iraq, and one excuse was as good as another. I think they picked WMDs because they thought that was the best bet. Sure, there is a laundry list of reasons in the AUMF that are not WMD-related, but the Bush administration made it the _sine qua non_ of the Iraq war. The smoking gun that could manifest itself as a mushroom cloud. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/56 "2013-02-19T19:24:05Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > (As they have never faced the consequences of their decision, it appears their hubris was justified.) Didn’t Cheney make a comment along the lines of:“We ( at the top) are creating history at the moment and all the rest of you can do, for the years to come, is study what _we_ did.” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/57 "2013-02-19T22:03:00Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Didn’t Cheney make a comment along the lines of:“We ( at the top) are creating history at the moment and all the rest of you can do, for the years to come, is study what _we_ did.” it’s from an [“unnamed aide to George W. Bush”.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community) > [@](#): > > The aide said that guys like me were “in what we call the reality-based community,” which he defined as people who “believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.” … “That’s not the way the world really works anymore,” he continued. “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/58 "2013-02-19T22:07:33Z")
> [@](#): > > The aide said that guys like me were “in what we call the reality-based community,” which he defined as people who “believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.” … “That’s not the way the world really works anymore,” he continued. “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.” You left out the part of the quote where the unnamed source asks if the color blue for the reporter is the same blue as for White House officials, and then gets the munchies and wanders off. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/59 "2013-02-19T22:08:54Z")
Wow that is right up there with Xerxes lashing and branding the Ocean for defying his will **Capt** @ **der trihs** quote ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/60 "2013-02-19T22:16:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > “Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said she is not sorry she voted for a resolution authorizing President Bush to take military action in Iraq despite the recent problems there but she does regret ‘the way the president used the authority.’” **Hillary Clinton, April 2004.** > > That was 1 year after the invasion, btw. She was correct. The authorization bill did not simply say, “Let’s invade Iraq!” On the contrary, it authorized Bush to use military force only after he certified in writing that nothing short of war could keep America safe from Iraq. At the time of the vote, there had been no outside inspectors in Iraq for four years, and it was the responsible thing to do for Congress to assume the worst. The only information they had about Iraq was the estimates and guesses of our intelligence community, so they had no choice but to trust them. Although the NIE showed that there was more uncertainty about WMDs than Bush and Cheney portrayed, people responsible for the security of the US had to err on the side of caution. And the bill worked perfectly. It forced Saddam to allow the UN inspectors back in, and even to allow them complete access to previously forbidden areas, like the Presidential compounds. It only took a few weeks of inspections to prove that our intelligence was wrong, and that Chalabi’s defectors were liars. It only took a few months to prove that there were no large active WMD programs or stockpiles at all. And according to Blix, it would only have taken a few more months to have completely accounted for the WMDs that we knew Saddam had in the 1980s. So by early March 2003, the Democrats could take great satisfaction in the October 2002 vote. It had accomplished its goals, resulting in a sure knowledge, for the first time in decades, that Iraq was no threat to the US. And then Bush ignored all the work of the UN inspectors, declared in writing that nothing short of war could protect the US against Saddam’s pickup truck army, and invaded anyway. Hillary was absolutely correct. The problem was not in the vote, but in the way Bush abused the authority it gave him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759.md?page=4)