# Hubris: The Iraq War **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759 "2013-02-19T02:07:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/61 "2013-02-19T22:40:56Z")
I disagree. I think any person who voted for the Iraq war resolution ought to have known that they were casting their lot for war. The problem was the vote. To take some kind of solace that they helped get inspections by voting for war is delusional: they voted for war, that’s what they got; and any claim that the March 19th invasion wasn’t exactly what they approved is simply not credible. And I’m speaking as someone who does not believe that Bush and others lied. Lying to me means that they knew the truth and chose to say something else. I think that they really, truly, honestly believed that the WMD were well-hidden and Blix was simply being played for a fool. But in my book, I don’t think that they are redeemed in any way by being wrong as opposed to being liars. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/62 "2013-02-19T23:09:11Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And I’m speaking as someone who does not believe that Bush and others lied. Lying to me means that they knew the truth and chose to say something else. I think that they really, truly, honestly believed that the WMD were well-hidden and Blix was simply being played for a fool. But in my book, I don’t think that they are redeemed in any way by being wrong as opposed to being liars. Although I strongly disagree on this point, you are entitled to your opinion that Bush’s team thought Blix was a fool. But I don’t see any possible way that you can believe they never lied at all. They lied when they used phrases like “no doubt” and “absolutely certain” about things that their experts explicitly told them were doubtful or uncertain. They lied when they said that the NYT was independently confirming the stories that they had leaked to the NYT. Almost every speech Bush gave was extremely disingenuous, and calculated to create an impression of imminent danger, while being only technically true at best. For example, they liked to say “We know that Saddam has had contacts with al Qaeda going back ten years,” which any listener would construe as an active relationship, when what actually happened was that there had been one meeting between underlings ten years earlier, that came to nothing, or their constant claims of an al Qaeda presence in Iraq, when the only part of Iraq with any Al Qaeda presence was the Kurdish territory that the US patrolled to keep Saddam out of. By the time they invaded, they knew that the sites that the CIA had identified as active WMD factories or storage depots were not only not full of WMDs, but in many cases had obviously been abandoned for years, yet they continued to cite the same claims, and even doubled down on the discredited reports of aluminum tubes and African uranium. They certainly knew by March 2003 that Iraq was no threat to the US. And yet, Bush signed a letter to Congress dated March 18, 2003 — when it was known beyond doubt that the CIA guesses had been wrong, and that Curveball and his pals were liars — certifying that nothing short of war could make the US safe from Iraq. How can you say he wasn’t lying? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/63 "2013-02-20T00:12:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I disagree. I think any person who voted for the Iraq war resolution ought to have known that they were casting their lot for war. The problem was the vote. To take some kind of solace that they helped get inspections by voting for war is delusional: they voted for war, that’s what they got; and any claim that the March 19th invasion wasn’t exactly what they approved is simply not credible. > > And I’m speaking as someone who does not believe that Bush and others lied. Lying to me means that they knew the truth and chose to say something else. I think that they really, truly, honestly believed that the WMD were well-hidden and Blix was simply being played for a fool. But in my book, I don’t think that they are redeemed in any way by being wrong as opposed to being liars. Exactly. A vote for war is a vote for war. It was at Bush’s discretion to decide when to invade. If Congress wanted to put a check on Bush’s actions, they could have made the actual invasion contingent on a later vote, but they gave all the authority to Bush. In fact, I think the Bush Administration wrote the wording of the AUMF and Congress essentially rubber stamped it. It was disgusting, and I remember it very well. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/64 "2013-02-20T00:19:50Z")
Hubris = thinking you’re invulnerable and infallible so long as you don’t have a foreskin. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/65 "2013-02-20T00:33:46Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > They’re claiming basically that they were right, but their intelligence was bad. This is the war crimes defence; no matter how absurd the evidence or the assessment of the evidence, if you can show you held an honest belief that your country was under direct threat you cannot be found guilty. As I said before, we made up the rules in the first place. The idea is to maintain the world powers. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/66 "2013-02-20T01:05:26Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > They certainly knew by March 2003 that Iraq was no threat to the US. And yet, Bush signed a letter to Congress dated March 18, 2003 — when it was known beyond doubt that the CIA guesses had been wrong, and that Curveball and his pals were liars — certifying that nothing short of war could make the US safe from Iraq. How can you say he wasn’t lying? There were Iraqi generals who did not know that there were no CW in Iraq. Even Hans Blix has said that Saddam’s wanted the rest of the world to think that he had CW, and Bush and Co. took that at face value. Blix also believes that Bush and Blair were not lying, and that they were wrong. They simply could not give up the Rumsfeld maxim that absence of evidence is not evidence of abscence. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/67 "2013-02-20T02:18:54Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > They simply could not give up the Rumsfeld maxim that absence of evidence is not evidence of abscence. That’ll hold up in court. \ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/68 "2013-02-20T03:23:36Z")
I voted to give the president the authorization to go to war, but I didn’t think he’d actually use it! Yeah, right. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/69 "2013-02-20T03:46:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They are Republicans, and therefore held to a different standard. Like Nixon, if necessary they’ll simply be pardoned. Look how Obama has gone out of his way to ensure there will be little investigation and no punishment over the Bush administration’s use of torture. Both the Democrats and Republicans run interference for Republican leaders. No. It has nothing to do with US political leanings. All of them are wanted in different criminal courts for a multitude of crimes. Guess why we won’t bee seeing them in any of those countries? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/70 "2013-02-20T03:49:44Z")
PS- Obama has surely made himself an international criminal – with impunity. He excels at that. ---
**Author:** ![temp\_user](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@temp\_user](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/temp_user)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/71 "2013-02-20T04:03:44Z")
i don’t have much to contribute to the finer points of this debate, but i do recall this new york times article from 2003 that basically states that iraq/hussein wanted desperately to make an eleventh hour deal, to the point of allowing american inspectors in to confirm/deny the existence of chemical weapons/wmd. [http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/06/world/struggle-for-iraq-diplomacy-iraq-said-have-tried-reach-last-minute-deal-avert.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/06/world/struggle-for-iraq-diplomacy-iraq-said-have-tried-reach-last-minute-deal-avert.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/72 "2013-02-20T05:14:04Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Very disappointed with this. It almost could have been made by Fox News. > > The authorization passed by Congress in October of 2002 did not give Bush unconditional authority to invade; it set some conditions, namely that within 48 hours of invading, Bush had to certify to Congress in writing that all diplomatic measures had failed, and that nothing short of war could protect the US from Iraq. Bush signed a statement saying that that was the case, in full knowledge that the UN inspectors had said that Iraq’s only weapons in violation of UN sanctions were some conventional missiles that flew about 111 miles, instead of the 93 miles allowed. The US is 8000 miles from Iraq, and the UN had already begun destroying the missiles, but Bush didn’t care. He invaded anyway, after lying to Congress in writing. > > [http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030319-1.html](http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030319-1.html) > > May he burn in hell. I had similar dissappointment with the Documentary although it was never expected to be what it should be. I have reached a conclusion that coming from a liberal perspective there is difficulty understand what you have written very well above. Every commentator in “Hubris” last night when mentioning the authorization use the phrase that Senators and Congressment “VOTED FOR WAR”. That is not true at all. It does not tak but a split second to add the proper “if necessary” to that phrase. Bush defenders always come back against any criticism of Bush’s final decision to kick inspectors out and start war with the manic cliche’… “BUT DEMOCRATS VOTED FOR WAR”. I feel this powerful myth contributes heavily to why Bush and Cheney have not paid a price other than the demise of any kind of respected legacy for the depraved acts they committed ten years ago to put Americans in a kill and be killed situation when UN inspectors were disarming Iraq just fine and better than they ever had doen before. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/73 "2013-02-20T05:25:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I watched that live. I couldn’t believe my eyes or ears, it was that bad. Lost a lot of respect for him that day, I did. Powell is another one living higher on the many myths that have emerged regarding Bush’s invasion of Iraq in march 2003. I am sick of hearing about his ‘reluctant warrior’ status… as if we are to feel sorry for him that he was a good soldier and was duped by Tenet or mistaken with Tenet and the all the rest. Powell will have no explanation for his blow up at his counterpart from France, DeVillipain who enraged Powell because he said France would not authorize war at the UNSC because in February 2003, France and most non-bribable nations saw very clearly that inspections were working and a few more months would resolve all issues. Powell was not blind or fooled by what the rest of the world outside the Fox News and Bush circle could see. Inspections were working. It was that day thay Powell who claims he wanted the UN to back any war for legitimacy, could probably stopped the war, not by resigning but by telling truth to power… Look Mr President, there is no need to rush into war. There are unfettered inspections taking place on the ground in Iraq and that is what our position has been. To get that. DeVillipain is correct. The inspection process is working. That would of done it for Bush and Cheney. I am certain of that. Funny thing is, that if Bush had backed off and Iraq became disarmed peacefully, Bush would have accomplished a great deal and made the world really safer. Its too bad for the scores and tens of scores killed and injured for the farce of an attack on innocent people the Iraq invasion was. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/74 "2013-02-20T06:31:32Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It was that day thay Powell who claims he wanted the UN to back any war for legitimacy, could probably stopped the war, not by resigning but by telling truth to power… > > Look Mr President, there is no need to rush into war. There are unfettered inspections taking place on the ground in Iraq and that is what our position has been. To get that. > > DeVillipain is correct. The inspection process is working. > > That would of done it for Bush and Cheney. > > I am certain of that. “If only Stalin knew what his underlings were doing.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/75 "2013-02-20T12:29:52Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Every commentator in “Hubris” last night when mentioning the authorization use the phrase that Senators and Congressment “VOTED FOR WAR”. > > That is not true at all. It does not tak but a split second to add the proper “if necessary” to that phrase. They did vote for war. Read section (b) of the resolution: It says the President may attack Iraq “as HE determines to be necessary.” Not as a impartial person or body thinks, it invests the decision for war in the President alone. That’s a vote for war. > **[Learn About the Bloody Iran-Iraq War of 1980-88](https://www.thoughtco.com/the-iran-iraq-war-1980-1988-195531)** > > Learn about the Iran-Iraq War, 1980 to 1988, between Saddam Hussein's invading army of Iraqis and the Iranian defensive forces under Ayatollah Khomeini. Senator Levin offered an amendment which authorized war if the UNSC also authorized war, but if the US were to go it alone, there would have to be another vote in Congress. Biden, Clinton, and most Democrats voted against it. Of course they knew they were voting for war! ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/76 "2013-02-20T13:58:21Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I probably made it up then. > > I’m guessing a lot of those links don’t work now. Hold your horses. I am not disbelieving you, just want to read that opinion. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/77 "2013-02-20T14:37:25Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Senator Levin offered an amendment which authorized war if the UNSC also authorized war, but if the US were to go it alone, there would have to be another vote in Congress. Biden, Clinton, and most Democrats voted against it. Of course they knew they were voting for war! Well, at that point they’d be lumped in with ‘old Europe’ and the cheese-eating surrender monkey’s. The NYT apologised later for its uncritical, unquestioning posture. In truth US media didn’t criticise for fear of being cut out the loop and being made irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/78 "2013-02-20T14:47:54Z")
This NYT Sunday Magazine article is worth the read. I’ve linked to it before in this forum, and it’s several pages long, but it does a good job of outlining the process by which the vote was achieved, with special emphasis on HRC’s role. [Hillary’s War](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/29/magazine/03Hillary-t.html?_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![2ManyTacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/3da27b/32.png) [@2ManyTacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ManyTacos)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/79 "2013-02-20T16:42:36Z")
Not to derail this thread too much, but… I know that everybody in the world is supposedly in love with Hillary Clinton right now - and don’t get me wrong, I’d still probably vote for her if she runs in 2016 - but the main reason why I would like to see another Democrat succeed Obama (_other_ than HRC) is that Mrs. Clinton voted for the Iraq War, and that is just a major, MAJOR strike against her IMO. Hell, the person who I’d really like to see run in four years is Brian Schweitzer, and I’m not even fucking from Montana. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/80 "2013-02-20T17:17:09Z")
What about the analog situation (today) with Iran? We keep getting told that Iran is ready to have a nuclear bomb-Bibi Netanyahu keeps talking it up-and yet there is no credible evidence whatsoever of an Iranian bomb. Since the Iraq war was such a disaster, one would think that world leaders would exercise more caution, in dealing with Iran. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759.md?page=5)