# Hubris: The Iraq War **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759 "2013-02-19T02:07:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/121 "2013-02-21T16:34:56Z")
It’s been a while since I looked at Hans Blix’s book, but my recollection is that he was more circumspect in his own personal conclusions than what people often ascribe to him. There are folks who say things like, “Blix proved that WMDs don’t exist!” or “Blix proved Bush was lying!” My recollection of his book was that he thought that the intelligence provided to him on where to look for WMD was useless, but that he needed more time to reach a conclusion about Iraq’s WMD programs. He also clearly concluded that there was nothing that he could do to dissuade Cheney from pressing for war: if he found WMD, Cheney would believe that war was justified; and if he failed to find WMD, it was evidence that Iraq was not complying with the UN resolutions. I don’t remember if he expressed any views about Bush’s mindset, but Blix was very critical of Cheney. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/122 "2013-02-21T18:09:09Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > He hadn’t proven that there was not a single WMD anywhere in Iraq. He _had_ proven that every site that the CIA had identified as a WMD factory or stockpile was clean. And, of course, one of the claims of the CIA was that SH was moving shit around and playing “cat and mouse”, so it’s not like there was some checklist you could just use and say OK, we’re done now that the checklist is filled out. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/123 "2013-02-21T20:02:28Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > A related question: now that AG Holder has effectively sanctioned the murder of US citizens overseas, why not end the whole Guantanamo farce? Execution of the detainees would “clear the deck” and enable the Obama administration to have a “fresh start”. Strange how the left was all in arms about “waterboarding” and forced confessions, but has no problems with extrajudicial murders. Are you under the illusion that the Left, such as it is, _likes_ Obama or what he’s been doing? “Bush in blackface” is the kind of comment I hear about him from the Left, not praise or acceptance. And we don’t kill them all because we couldn’t do it without being caught, and it would be embarrassing. We couldn’t spin it as anything other than what it is, a massacre; and we love our self delusion that we are heroes, not monsters. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/124 "2013-02-21T22:03:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And, of course, one of the claims of the CIA was that SH was moving shit around and playing “cat and mouse”, so it’s not like there was some checklist you could just use and say OK, we’re done now that the checklist is filled out. **John** , while I fully agree with you that the whole “WMDs” casus belli was a bunch of bullshit from day one (culminating with the infamous “they could drop them on us via balloons” :rolleyes: ) I think you’d do well reading this article about the CIA’s involvement in the whole sham: [**The Lies that Led to the Iraq War and the Persistent Myth of ‘Intelligence Failure’**](http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-lies-that-led-to-the-iraq-war-and-the-persistent-myth-of-intelligence-failure/5304001) It is a rather explicit expose on the many lies/exaggerations and the general disingenuous ways they – CIA – went about building “the case for war.” ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/125 "2013-02-21T22:08:23Z")
Just an excerpt from the above link: > [@](#): > > \*\*There was no such “intelligence failure”. On the contrary, there was an extremely successful disinformation campaign coordinated by the CIA in furtherance of the government’s policy of seeking regime change in Iraq. The language of the document itself reveals a persistent dishonesty. It speaks of “deepened suspicions” that Iraq “had ongoing WMD programs” and “suspicions that Iraq continued to hide WMD.” Needless to say, however, the Iraq war was not sold to the public on the grounds that government officials and intelligence agencies had “suspicions” that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction (WMD). It was sold to the public with declarations that it was a known fact that Iraq had ongoing programs and stockpiles of WMD. The tacit acknowledgment that the actual evidence only supported “suspicions” that this was so by itself is proof of that the narrative of an “intelligence failure” is a fiction. > > The report relies heavily upon the 1995 defection of Saddam Hussein’s son-in-law, Hussein Kamal (respectively spelled “Saddam Husayn” and “Husayn Kamil” in the document), arguing that the information he revealed bolstered suspicions that Iraq was concealing ongoing WMD programs and continued to possess stockpiles of WMD. It argues further that the regime’s behavior indicated he was hiding such weapons. Kamal, who returned to Iraq and was killed there in 1996, was the same individual Vice President Dick Cheney referred to in selling the administration’s case for war on August 26, 2002, when he said that “we now know that Saddam has resumed his efforts to acquire nuclear weapons. Among other sources, we’ve gotten this from the firsthand testimony of defectors—including Saddam’s own son-in-law, who was subsequently murdered at Saddam’s direction.” But the fact is that Cheney was lying, and the CIA’s persistent adherence to essentially the same false narrative renders ridiculous the suggestion that this document is some kind of “mea culpa”.\*\* – much more at source. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/126 "2013-02-21T22:14:14Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Just an excerpt from the above link: > > – much more at source. Like this: _“Since 2004, Global Research has provided detailed analysis and coverage of US-NATO-Israel preparations to wage a pre-emptive nuclear attack on Iran.”_ Sounds like a must-read while we’re waiting for the next Harry Potter novel. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/127 "2013-02-21T22:25:01Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > **John** , while I fully agree with you that the whole “WMDs” casus belli was a bunch of bullshit from day one (culminating with the infamous “they could drop them on us via balloons” :rolleyes: ) I think you’d do well reading this article about the CIA’s involvement in the whole sham: > > [**The Lies that Led to the Iraq War and the Persistent Myth of ‘Intelligence Failure’**](http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-lies-that-led-to-the-iraq-war-and-the-persistent-myth-of-intelligence-failure/5304001) > > It is a rather explicit expose on the many lies/exaggerations and the general disingenuous ways they – CIA – went about building “the case for war.” Just to be clear, I wasn’t addressing anything in that post other than the fact that I don’t think Blix had “cleared” SH in the early part of Jan 2003, and the other poster said. Whatever the intel was, I have no doubt that Bush el al cherry picked and spun whatever they could to make the whole thing seem like we just had to go into Iraq. I never bought any of it. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/128 "2013-02-21T23:29:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, I wasn’t addressing anything in that post other than the fact that I don’t think Blix had “cleared” SH in the early part of Jan 2003, and the other poster said. No, I didn’t say he cleared SH, I said that he cleared enough CIA-identified sites to prove that their intelligence had been wrong. I said that at least twice, and at least once directly to you. And by “cleared,” I don’t just mean he found no WMDs, I mean he found them either totally unsuitable for the alleged purpose (e.g., a purported CW facility that didn’t even have running water), or obviously long since abandoned. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/129 "2013-02-22T00:57:09Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > No, I didn’t say he cleared SH, I said that he cleared enough CIA-identified sites to prove that their intelligence had been wrong. I said that at least twice, and at least once directly to you. > > And by “cleared,” I don’t just mean he found no WMDs, I mean he found them either totally unsuitable for the alleged purpose (e.g., a purported CW facility that didn’t even have running water), or obviously long since abandoned. You said this: > [@TS](#): > > …And the bill worked perfectly. It forced Saddam to allow the UN inspectors back in, and even to allow them complete access to previously forbidden areas, like the Presidential compounds. > > It only took a few weeks of inspections to prove that our intelligence was wrong, and that Chalabi’s defectors were liars. It only took a few months to prove that there were no large active WMD programs or stockpiles at all. If that isn’t “cleared”, I don’t know what is. You said that in early 2003 Blix proved “there were no large active WMD programs or stockpiles at all.” ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/130 "2013-02-22T00:57:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, I wasn’t addressing anything in that post other than the fact that I don’t think Blix had “cleared” SH in the early part of Jan 2003, and the other poster said. Whatever the intel was, I have no doubt that Bush el al cherry picked and spun whatever they could to make the whole thing seem like we just had to go into Iraq. I never bought any of it. Fair enough. But what **Tony** said. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/131 "2013-02-22T01:04:44Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Like this: > > _“Since 2004, Global Research has provided detailed analysis and coverage of US-NATO-Israel preparations to wage a pre-emptive nuclear attack on Iran.”_ > > Sounds like a must-read while we’re waiting for the next Harry Potter novel. And you are saying Israel hasn’t been trying to do _just that_\*? Not like Harry Potter at all. 😕 [Israel’s strike on Syria as a dress rehearsal for conflict with Iran](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/01/31/israels-strike-on-syria-as-a-dress-rehearsal-for-conflict-with-iran/) Plenty more where that came from. Honestly, it’s absurd to argue otherwise, what with Bibi injecting himself in the American elections for _just that purpose_. \*don’t buy the “nuclear” part of course. “Bomb bomb, Iran” is more like it. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/132 "2013-02-22T01:12:06Z")
[**Sen. John McCain Bomb Bomb Iran**](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rNqxn0ynO0) How fun. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/133 "2013-02-22T01:20:09Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Like this: > > _“Since 2004, Global Research has provided detailed analysis and coverage of US-NATO-Israel preparations to wage a pre-emptive nuclear attack on Iran.”_ > > Sounds like a must-read while we’re waiting for the next Harry Potter novel. What makes you think they don’t have one? It’s not like we haven’t threatened to use nuclear weapons on Iran in the past; it would be even more incompetent if we were making threats but didn’t even bother to plan for it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/134 "2013-02-22T01:39:43Z")
Perhaps we need to call in Hans Blix to get to the bottom of the US-Israeli plans to nuke Iran. Intelligence analysts - I mean, lefty blogs have a secret source who claims the US is an imminent threat. We can’t let the smoking gun be a mushroom cloud! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/135 "2013-02-22T01:52:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Perhaps we need to call in Hans Blix to get to the bottom of the US-Israeli plans to nuke Iran. Intelligence analysts - I mean, lefty blogs have a secret source who claims the US is an imminent threat. We can’t let the smoking gun be a mushroom cloud! Haven’t the past ten years proven to you that indeed, the US _is an imminent threat_ to nations that don’t bow to them? I mean, _what else_ do you need? More deaths? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/136 "2013-02-22T02:08:56Z")
Change a couple words and that’s what Cheney said about Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/137 "2013-02-22T02:19:54Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Change a couple words and that’s what Cheney said about Iraq. Except for the little detail that we are attacking people left and right, while Iraq was neither capable of doing that nor trying to do so. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/138 "2013-02-22T02:36:17Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Change a couple words and that’s what Cheney said about Iraq. He was full of shit as we well know by now – hopefully. Are you part of the “we make our own reality” community? Who was Iraq & with what ‘threatening to invade’? Don’t you think the '91 pummeling/butchering (“[Highway of death/turkey shoot](http://www.mimages.co.za/files/imagecache/watermark/files/CABAA-CCBCA-DDBCH-BJ_thumb.jpg)” bring any memories back?) taught them anything, or are Iraqis – SH included – that dumb by virtue of their place of birth? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/139 "2013-02-22T03:30:30Z")
I’m not inclined to be lectured on reality because someone reads articles on websites that have predicted seven of the last zero invasions of Iran. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759/140 "2013-02-22T03:37:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If that isn’t “cleared”, I don’t know what is. Sure you do, because this is what prompted my first correction to your mischaracterization of my claim: [QUOTE=John Mace] I don’t recall Blix’s reports as being all that definitive. He was, after all, asking for more time and more inspections. If had already “proven” the CIA to be wrong, why did he need to do anything else? Bush effectively cut him off, though. I think what you may be missing, and I mentioned this upthread, is that SH had to not only destroy all his WMDs, but he had to account for their destruction, too. [/QUOTE] So at least this morning, you seemed to think that “cleared” meant that Blix had nothing further to do, because he had shown that there were no WMDs anywhere in Iraq, and he had accounted for their destruction, too. But that is a _ **much** _ higher bar than merely proving that the CIA was wrong about the specific sites it identified, e.g. the satellite photos that Powell used in his dog and pony show. And once we knew the CIA was wrong about the most important reason for going to war, then we no longer had justification to invade. Which is exactly the reason that our NATO allies, France and Germany, did not support the invasion. > [@](#): > > You said that in early 2003 Blix proved “there were no large active WMD programs or stockpiles at all.” Yes I did, and as I thought I made clear, my definition of “large” is, “sufficient that a reasonable person would conclude that nothing short of war could protect the US from Iraq.” In other words, IMO Blix did more than enough to prove that Iraq was not an imminent threat to the US, and therefore Bush would be lying if he certified to Congress that it was. But I never claimed that Blix cleared Saddam of wanting WMDs, or even of having small quantities hidden in locations not yet inspected. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hubris-the-iraq-war/650759.md?page=8)