# Huckabee Pardoned Suspected Seattle Shooter. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2009, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577 "2009-12-01T12:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![valleyofthedolls](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a4c791/32.png) [@valleyofthedolls](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/valleyofthedolls)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/41 "2009-12-01T16:48:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Just as an academic matter, I am really curious what has become of all the people the Huckabee pardoned. How many have committed other crimes? 90%? 5%? I can’t answer this but do know the Wayne DuMond case caused a tremendous amount of grief for Huckabee. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/42 "2009-12-01T16:49:17Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I respect him a lot for refusing to join in on the Reverend Wright pile on in 2008. Professional courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/43 "2009-12-01T17:05:32Z")
Actually, Huckabee worries me because he is so likable. He isn’t completely irrational, and does treat his opponents respectfully. His nutty side is really well concealed. I really can’t fault him for releasing this guy either. It was a pretty long sentence for a string of thefts at the age of 16. It’s quite possible that he was obviously a threat to people that contacted him, but on paper, he looks like a standard crook that could easily get out and hold a low level job. Unless there is something I’m missing about his crimes, life behind bars sounds a bit extreme. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/44 "2009-12-01T17:06:14Z")
I like Huckabee. I had hopes for him as a 2012 contender. But he’s gonna have a make a really good case for this to get past it. I believe Willie Horton was a fair issue to use on Dukakis, and I believe this may well be a fair issue to use on Huckabee. I hope he can exonerate himself but I doubt it will take. _sigh_ OK, Romney, let’s see what ya got! Anybody but Sarah! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/45 "2009-12-01T17:24:01Z")
If Huckabee wants to remain a power on the national scene, he’d be well advised to get some people like Rove on board. They would use their media conduit (Fox, Beck, Limbaugh et al) in order to give them some cover (ie They said what? How shocking, but WE didn’t say that!) This media would go on the offensive. The main strategy is to attack, attack, and never be on the defensive. In fact, they could take some tips from the posters in the pit thread on this topic: Right wing media: “Anti-cop sentiment is strong among college-age, liberal leaning people, and is tied particularly tightly with radical politics.” Right wing talking head: “How do we know these cops didn’t have it coming?” Talk Radio: “Questions are now being asked about the background of the police who were shot” Another right wing media source: “It’s not out of the question that this might have been the result of payback for corruption in the poilce” Right wing paper: "Why is there no public inquiry about the rampant corruption happening with the police in Washington state? Questions are being asked! Another right wing media source: “The shooter, who was pardoned by a Clinton-appointed board…” Quoted by another source “The shooter, who was pardoned by Clinton…” Don’t put it past Republican handlers/spin doctors to smear the reputations of the police officers who were shot. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/46 "2009-12-01T17:31:25Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Just as an academic matter, I am really curious what has become of all the people the Huckabee pardoned. How many have committed other crimes? 90%? 5%? This is what I would like to know. You pardon or commute the sentence of X amount of folks, governors of other states are pardoning/commuting folks, a guy goes off and shoots four cops. That guy is one of X amount of people you’ve pardoned… so now you’re a bad guy (?) apparently, and this is all your fault. > [@Merijeek](#): > > Something people are overlooking is what this is going to do to legitemate pardons, clemency, and the like. Is the baby going out with the bathwater on this one? Is it going to be another three-strikes type clusterfuck that will lead to an iron-clad “once you’re in, you’re in, period, no questions asked” that will swell our prison populations even more? > > I mean, if a Governor with a direct line to God can get it wrong we certainly can’t trust any other politicians to get it right! > > -Joe Right, this is what I _really_ would like to know. I can see the wheels grinding now. "Remember that time in 2009 when someone offed the fuzz? Well, his sentence was _commuted_, therefore this is always bad. No more commutations. Ever! ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/47 "2009-12-01T17:31:53Z")
Holding Huckabee responsible for this any of this is really pretty dumb, but I do fully expect the right wing to do exactly that. So far, yep. What **Diogenes the Critic** is saying is correct. It’s not the Shodan-fantasy NYT that’s foaming at the mouth with condemnation. [The article that appeared today](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/us/politics/01huckabee.html?ref=politics) strikes me as being quite fair. Note that the criticism of Huckabee quoted in the article is from GOP or conservative sources… ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/48 "2009-12-01T17:40:16Z")
People always think there is one thing that will sink someone’s chances. Obama wouldn’t be President because of Wright, or Ayers, or his skin color. McCain won’t get the Republican nomination because of his support for Bush, Keating 5, or his treatment of his first wife. This won’t kill Huckabee’s chances. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/49 "2009-12-01T18:01:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, it is more likely that the NYT and others will repeat “Huckabee pardoned the shooter” over and over without mentioning that [list=A][li]No, he didn’t, and [\*]the guy wasn’t on the street because Huckabee granted a sixteen-year-old clemency, but because two parole boards thought he could be trusted.[/list]I don’t think they want to know. [/li] From the Nov 30 NYT article, first line: > [@](#): > > When Mike Huckabee, a former Southern Baptist minister then serving as governor of Arkansas, **granted clemency** to Maurice Clemmons nine years ago, he cited his age: Mr. Clemmons was 16 when he began the crime spree for which he was sentenced to more than 100 years in prison. (bolding mine) From later in the same article: > [@](#): > > And if it turns out to be a case in which a parole had gone bad, it will be difficult to pin responsibility solely on Mr. Huckabee, because many others made decisions that kept Mr. Clemmons out of prison. This is the part where **Shodan** returns to this thread to say: “Gosh folks, I’m sorry - it looks like I was completely wrong in my analysis of what the NYT would print.” \ ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/50 "2009-12-01T18:10:05Z")
\*\*Hamlet:\*\*No, you have it wrong. Obama’s race isn’t an issue for the liberal base. The degree to which McCain is like Bush was only somewhat an issue for the conservative base. Those issues – race and Bush-ness – were really only issues for those who were probably disinclined to support Obama or McCain anyway. Law and order is a prominent feature of the conservative base. The problem for Huckabee isn’t that Democrats will see him as weak on crime, but that Republicans will see him as weak on that issue. That’s why Huckabee cannot compete for the presidency. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/51 "2009-12-01T18:34:35Z")
Huckabee was correct. With the info he had, Clemmons was given way too long a sentence. I suppose 10 years in jail from 18 to 28, did not rehab him, but probably made him worse. It is a tough decision to make. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/52 "2009-12-01T18:37:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > At worst, he is guilty of a naive religious faith in redemption, but yes, that’s probably enough to scuttle his Presidential ambitions. That’s the impression I get, too. From what little I’ve heard, he sounds like an otherwise alright guy with a Jesus-shaped blind spot. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/53 "2009-12-01T18:58:58Z")
Huckabee said a day or two ago that he might not run in 2012, and I think this does kill his chances. Regardless of what the purported liberal media says, he already had a problem connecting with non-evangelical conservatives, and other Republican contenders would rake him over the coals for this. It’s a long time until the election, but this is a big problem for him, and if he was already wobbling on running, this could easily push him out. That being said, 100 years is an extraordinarily long sentence for the crimes Clemmons was convicted of (unless other information comes to light), so the clemency is not necessarily wrong. And Huckabee played a part in this but does not deserve all the blame. But if you’re a governor running for president, you always say you’ve had executive experience and can make the big decisions. Here’s a big decision that had tragic consequences down the road, and if you believe the buck stops with Huckabee, it’s a huge obstacle for him to overcome. [I think we can safely say this is the New York Times piece **Shodan** was anticipating, although it’s not an editorial, it’s an online Op-Ed.](http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/mike-huckabees-burden/?ref=opinion) > [@](#): > > SEATTLE – They were shot execution-style: four police officers starting a shift on Sunday morning at a coffee shop in a suburb of Tacoma. They were parents, each of them, community leaders, veteran officers. > > […] > > Trying to explain how such a man could have been on the streets, despite five felony convictions in Arkansas that should have kept him locked up for life, Detective Ed Troyer of the Pierce County Sheriff’s Office said, “Some people have to answer to that.” > > At the top of that list is Mike Huckabee, the former Arkansas governor and current host at Fox News. Huckabee granted Clemmons early release nine years ago, against the objections of prosecutors and victims. If we’re really going to evaluate Huckabee’s decision we need to know more about Clemmons’ convictions, why prosecutors said he should have been ineligible for parole, and why Huckabee disagreed. There should be a record of all of that, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/54 "2009-12-01T19:13:26Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > This is the part where **Shodan** returns to this thread to say: “Gosh folks, I’m sorry - it looks like I was completely wrong in my analysis of what the NYT would print.” > \ Good luck with that. Hope you bought an extra-large tub. I still think it’s ridiculous to pin the crime on Huckabee’s granting of clemency. No one can see into the future and see what events might unfold. It _is_ fair to judge him on whether the shooter should have been granted clemency on the basis on what was known at the time–that’s a different story. But if the GOP overreacts and Huckabee’s chances are now doomed, the GOP has only itself to blame. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/55 "2009-12-01T19:14:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If we’re really going to evaluate Huckabee’s decision we need to know more about Clemmons’ convictions, why prosecutors said he should have been ineligible for parole, and why Huckabee disagreed. There should be a record of all of that, I think. Huckabee said on Bill O’Reilly last night that at the time he was making the decision, he got no input from the prosecutors, despite his request. He said the only request for more information he got back was from the sentencing judge, who recommended the commutation. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/56 "2009-12-01T19:18:51Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > But if the GOP overreacts and Huckabee’s chances are now doomed, the GOP has only itself to blame. They wouldn’t overreact if they didn’t have the Willie Horton nonsense on their records. They simply can’t let this go even if they would prefer to. It’s the same problem that forces them to purge their own people who have affairs, following their treatment of Clinton. And yes, they do have only themselves to blame. Live by denunciation, die by it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/57 "2009-12-01T19:23:16Z")
We’ll know Huckabee’s in trouble when Fox News starts saying he was a Democratic candidate for the Presidency in 2008. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/58 "2009-12-01T19:31:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Huckabee said on Bill O’Reilly last night that at the time he was making the decision, he got no input from the prosecutors, despite his request. He said the only request for more information he got back was from the sentencing judge, who recommended the commutation. We’ll see that is true of if it’s just a self-serving fib or interpretation. The most serious offense on Clemmons’ rap sheet appears to be breaking into a cop’s house and stealing thousands of dollars in valuables and a gun. He also robbed and punched a woman, and took a gun to his high school. Someone else mentioned the alleged threats to a judge. And six months ago, the guy apparently went flat out crazy. You have to wonder how a man with a long criminal record remains free six months after being charged with attacking police officers and sexual abusing a child. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/59 "2009-12-01T19:55:58Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > This is the part where **Shodan** returns to this thread to say: > “Gosh folks, I’m sorry - it looks like I was completely wrong in my analysis of what the NYT would print.” > > \ Actually this is the part where I return to the thread to say “I told you so”. > [@](#): > > Detective Ed Troyer of the Pierce County Sheriff’s Office said, “Some people have to answer to that.” > > At the top of that list is Mike Huckabee… So - Clemmons goes on a crime spree at the age of 16. He spends about a decade behind bars for his crimes (for burglary and purse snatching). He is sentenced to 100+ years in prison. Huckabee commutes his sentence to only 47 years. Then the parole board lets him out in August 2000. Within a few months, he is back in prison for a brand-new robbery. In 2001, while still (apparently) on parole for the 47 year sentence, he is sentenced to ten more years, bringing the total of time remaining to be served to 46 or thereabouts. He serves three years, and is paroled yet again, based, no doubt, on his stellar record of achievement in the few months he was loose the last time. Then he gets picked up for rape - and gets bail. Then he (allegedly) kills four cops. But none of this is the fault of the parole board who let him out after serving ten years of a forty seven year sentence. None of it is the fault of the parole board who let him out on parole before he even served the second sentence he got for crimes he committed the first time he was on parole. None of it is the fault of the judge who let this repeat offender out on bail. No no - Huckabee is at the head of the list of people who have to answer for this. Because after all, the difference between 47 years in prison and 108 is what caused all this. Suuuuuure it is. Regards, Shodan PS - [Cite.](http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/11/mike_huckabees_maurice_clemmons_commutation_the_ba.php) ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577/60 "2009-12-01T19:59:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > … And six months ago, the guy apparently went flat out crazy. You have to wonder how a man with a long criminal record remains free six months after being charged with attacking police officers and sexual abusing a child. Haven’t heard the back story of how he so quickly became _the_ person of interest. Did he know any of the cops? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/huckabee-pardoned-suspected-seattle-shooter/519577.md?page=4)