# Hugo Chavez might be too sick to attend his own inaugural **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903 "2012-12-13T05:12:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/41 "2013-01-11T18:25:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t see anyone claiming that Mexico was conducting fair elections during the PRI period either. Exactly. Venezuela-now compares **favorably.** ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/42 "2013-01-11T18:38:40Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > I’ll provide the cites in a little while if he really wants them, I really want the cites too. I follow news from Venezuela fairly closely (I get the Miami Herald here, which has pretty good coverage of Latin America) and I don’t recall any instances of massacres or car-bombs linked to Chavez adherents that were related to the recent elections. The only relevant hit on “car bomb Venezuela” I got was for a 2004 incident,[the killing of a state prosecutor](http://articles.latimes.com/2004/nov/20/world/fg-venezuela20) investigating the attempted coup against Chavez in 2002. > [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m just saying that Chavez has been in a position to heavily stack the deck in his favor and he’s taken advantage of it, so the idea of “free and fair” elections in Venezuela is one that should be taken with a very large grain of salt. That’s my feeling as well. The recent voting was reasonably clean as such things go, and I believe the majority of Venezuelans still support Chavez. However, Chavez himself is not fundamentally a democrat, as witnessed by his own initial coup attempt against the government in 1992. While not usually using outright violence, he does try to silence his critics through bullying and intimidation, as well as inhibiting a free press. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/43 "2013-01-11T18:44:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Exactly. Venezuela-now compares **favorably.** So what? You’re being far too glib about this. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/44 "2013-01-11T19:53:14Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > So what? You’re being far too glib about this. The point is that Chavez is neither a Stalinist dictator, nor a thug-in-possession like the PRI presidents of Mexico used to be. The present system does not quite meet First World standards of democracy-and-human-rights, but it’s still much better than that – and, better and more democratic than anything Venezuela ever had before Chavez. And better than what they’ve got now in Colombia, too, I daresay. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/45 "2013-01-11T19:57:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > and, better and more democratic than anything Venezuela ever had before Chavez. And better than what they’ve got now in Colombia, too, I daresay. I question that very much. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/46 "2013-01-11T20:02:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The point is that Chavez is neither a Stalinist dictator, Although he’s not, given his open admiration and praise for the Castros it’s reasonable to think he’d like to be if he could get away with it. > [@](#): > > nor a thug-in-possession like the PRI presidents of Mexico used to be. Fairly close, though. He’s definitely a thug by nature. If he had had a few more decades in power maybe he could have subverted the system enough to have his Bolivaran Revolution become as ingrained as the PRI. > [@](#): > > The present system does not quite meet First World standards of democracy-and-human-rights, “Quite” is very much an understatement. It doesn’t come close to first world standards. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/47 "2013-01-11T22:54:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Exactly. Venezuela-now compares **favorably.** I don’t know how you got that from what I posted. I agree that Chavez is no Stalin. He’s not even a Castro. But he’s not a real democrat either. I’m sticking with the comparison I made above: Chavez is the equivalent of one of the old political machine bosses. He’s not killing his opponents and he has genuine support - but the bottom line is he’s not taking any chances when it comes to elections. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/48 "2013-01-11T22:59:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And better than what they’ve got now in Colombia, too, I daresay. Really? What do you base that on? President Alvaro Uribe stepped down from office in 2010 when he completed his two terms. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/49 "2013-01-17T03:26:30Z")
As promised, here are some citations about the voting issues in Venezuela: Voter rolls are a joke- [http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-120174423.html](http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-120174423.html) [http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,64687,00.html](http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,64687,00.html) Venezuela’s own Kirov: [Car Bomb Kills Coup Prosecutor in Venezuela](http://articles.latimes.com/2004/nov/20/world/fg-venezuela20) [http://www.eluniversal.com/2005/11/09/en\_pol\_art\_09A630141.shtml](http://www.eluniversal.com/2005/11/09/en_pol_art_09A630141.shtml) Jimmy Carter goes to Venezuela, hangs out with chavez in Caracas, watches the regime announce who has won the election, announces he has “monitored” the balloting and declares it legitimate: [President Jimmy Carter: Venezuela Election Trip Report, Aug 13-18, 2004](http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1801.html) Not to mention the bridge massacre, where 19 anti-Chavez protestors shot squarely in the head were magically transformed into Chavez supporters who were unfortunate enough to be innocent bystanders to another gunbattle (nineteen times in a row) in a series of videos by Chavez’s fawning foreign supporters. Not to mention the well-established links between Chavez and FARC. Not to mention the huge gap between exit polling and Chavez voting-machine controlled official results, that would put Bush’s Ohio shenanigans to shame. Not to mention rewriting the constitution to enable his presidency-for-life. Not to mention the fact that Venezeula was one of the most stable democracies in Latin America before Chavez came to power, and he’s got everyone buying into this narrative where he saved the country from some kind of dictatorship. Not to mention his ridiculous claims about literacy rates and crime and everything else that is just plain bullshit. This is a Peronist-style populist caudillo, he doesn’t deserve the support of anybody, and both his country and the world will be better off when he’s dead. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/50 "2013-01-17T03:59:30Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Jimmy Carter goes to Venezuela, hangs out with chavez in Caracas, watches the regime announce who has won the election, announces he has “monitored” the balloting and declares it legitimate: [President Jimmy Carter: Venezuela Election Trip Report, Aug 13-18, 2004](http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1801.html) I don’t trust Chavez, but I trust Carter. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/51 "2013-01-17T04:02:04Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > This is a Peronist-style populist caudillo, he doesn’t deserve the support of anybody, and both his country and the world will be better off when he’s dead. So what happens when he **is** dead? That’s the important question. The majority of the people really do want his Bolivarian Revolution, apparently, but what happens to it with no charismatic-strongman leader? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/52 "2013-01-17T04:34:09Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Venezuela’s own Kirov: [Car Bomb Kills Coup Prosecutor in Venezuela](http://articles.latimes.com/2004/nov/20/world/fg-venezuela20) That’s the incident I mentioned above. _One_ car bomb, 8 years ago, whose victim was a government prosecutor, not a member of the opposition. In other words, your claim of “some car bombs of dissenting figures” is not supported in any way by this cite. > [@](#): > > Not to mention the bridge massacre, where 19 anti-Chavez protestors shot squarely in the head were magically transformed into Chavez supporters who were unfortunate enough to be innocent bystanders to another gunbattle (nineteen times in a row) in a series of videos by Chavez’s fawning foreign supporters. Again, _one_ incident that occurred in the midst of the anti-Chavez coup attempt 10 years ago. It hardly supports your implication that multiple massacres of opposition members were committed as part of the run-up to the most recent election. I certainly don’t claim that the recent elections were completely clean or fair, but your suggestion that “car bombings and massacres” played a part in the recent campaign is not supported. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/53 "2013-01-17T09:10:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I don’t trust Chavez, but I trust Carter. Good. The cite I provided was a letter written by Jimmy Carter himself and published on the Carter Center’s website, so presumably you believe it. His “monitoring of the election” involved no actual physical presence at polling stations nor any investigation of claims of fraud. He says so himself. > [@Colibri](#): > > Again, _one_ incident that occurred in the midst of the anti-Chavez coup attempt 10 years ago. It hardly supports your implication that multiple massacres of opposition members were committed as part of the run-up to the most recent election. What is the correct number of massacres of protest marches to have before it becomes a problem, if it’s not one? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/54 "2013-01-18T19:42:49Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > What is the correct number of massacres of protest marches to have before it becomes a problem, if it’s not one? Certainly not zero, which is the number of “car bombings of dissenting figures” by Chavez supporters that you have provided any evidence for. (The one case you cited was of a government prosecutor rather than a member of the opposition). You also alleged there were at least a “couple of massacres,” but the only one you mentioned was not related to an election at all but to the anti-Chavez coup attempt. In short, your suggestion that “car bombs and massacres” were tactics that were used by Chavez forces to influence the recent elections was simply false. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/55 "2013-01-19T06:05:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So what happens when he **is** dead? That’s the important question. The majority of the people really do want his Bolivarian Revolution, apparently, but what happens to it with no charismatic-strongman leader? I repeat. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/56 "2013-01-19T07:30:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I repeat. Maduro will be the president over the short term. If Chavez dies or is declared permanently incapacitated, he’ll win the following election due to the sympathy vote if nothing else. But I think he’ll have trouble holding Chavismo together, due to the fact that Chavez systematically weakened the economy through croneyism in the oil industry and failure to make necessary investment in it, as well as weakening confidence of investors in general. In the long run, Maduro will be unable to maintain the benefits to the lower classes that bolstered their support of Chavez. Chavez failed to institute a sustainable system. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/57 "2013-01-19T09:12:32Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Certainly not zero, which is the number of “car bombings of dissenting figures” by Chavez supporters that you have provided any evidence for. (The one case you cited was of a government prosecutor rather than a member of the opposition). You also alleged there were at least a “couple of massacres,” but the only one you mentioned was not related to an election at all but to the anti-Chavez coup attempt. Everyone who Chavez alleged as behind the coup ended up in jail anyway. The only side that had anything to gain from the death of the prosecutor was Chavez’s. What was she going to reveal about the scope of the coup–that maybe it didn’t involve everyone who had ever looked at a government policy cross-eyed after all? That it wasn’t a CIA-originated plot but borne of real domestic discontent with dictatorial policies? That it wasn’t substantially different from the coup Chavez himself launched in 1992? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/58 "2013-01-19T14:05:33Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Everyone who Chavez alleged as behind the coup ended up in jail anyway. [I don’t think so.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Venezuelan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt#Criminal_investigation) > [@](#): > > **Criminal investigation** > > The people filmed shooting from the Puente Llaguno bridge were initially identified as being pro-Chávez political activists Rafael Cabrices, Richard Peñalver, Henry Atencio, and Nicolás Rivera. They were captured by the police and jailed for one year as they awaited trial, but charges were dropped before the trial began. Rafael Cabrices died from a heart attack three years later, in August 2005.[112] > > However, in April 2009, and after a trial that had begun back in March 2006, and which had seen “265 expert testimonies, 5,700 photos, 20 videos and 198 witnesses”, it was in fact ten of those same Metro police officers who were convicted of crimes leading to the deaths of 3 demonstrators back in 11 April 2002. Six of them, charged with homicide, were sentenced to 30 years each in prison. Only one officer was found “not guilty”. A lawyer for the victims of the violence described the Caracas Metropolitan Police as “the armed wing of the opposition”.[113] > > Under the 1999 Constitution, military officers are entitled to a pre-trial hearing before the Plenary of the Supreme Court of Justice to rule on whether they should be charged with a crime. In such a hearing on 14 August 2002, the Tribunal ruled by an 11–9 margin (with two justices recused) that four high-ranking military officers charged with rebellion should not stand trial, arguing that what took place was not a “coup” but a “vacuum of power” that had been generated by the announcement of Chávez’s resignation made by Gen. Lucas Rincón Romero.[114] On 12 March 2004 however, the Constitutional Chamber of the Supreme Court ruled that the recusals were unconstitutional, making the hearing invalid and that this meant the military officers (by then retired) should stand trial.[115] > > On 18 November 2004, a leading state prosecutor Danilo Anderson was assassinated shortly before he was scheduled to bring charges against 400 people for alleged participation in the coup. Meanwhile Carmona and several other participants went into exile. > > In December 2007 Chavez issued a pardon covering more than 60 people who had drafted or signed the Carmona Decree.[116] ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/59 "2013-01-19T17:31:59Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Everyone who Chavez alleged as behind the coup ended up in jail anyway. The only side that had anything to gain from the death of the prosecutor was Chavez’s. What was she going to reveal about the scope of the coup–that maybe it didn’t involve everyone who had ever looked at a government policy cross-eyed after all? That it wasn’t a CIA-originated plot but borne of real domestic discontent with dictatorial policies? That it wasn’t substantially different from the coup Chavez himself launched in 1992? The fact remains that what you posted about “car bombs and massacres” being a tactic used by Chavez forces in the recent elections was a load of rubbish. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903/60 "2013-01-19T19:15:45Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > What was she going to reveal about the scope of the coup And since you can’t even get [Danilo Anderson’s](http://caracaschronicles.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/danilo_anderson-701698.jpg) sex right, I doubt you really know much about the facts of the case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hugo-chavez-might-be-too-sick-to-attend-his-own-inaugural/643903.md?page=2)