# Human civilizations before the last ice-age? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 2, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668 "2013-04-02T21:35:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/21 "2013-04-03T16:03:52Z")
It’s quite possible that some form of agriculture arose prior to 10K years ago, and we just haven’t found any evidence. But if it did, it didn’t last terribly long or cover a very large area, or artifacts are likely to have been found. (Well, maybe it was in the Sahara, and is now covered by sand.) The current (Holocene) era is unusually stable, climactically, which certainly helps for the development of agriculture. It started about 13Kya. In any case it’s unlikely that any ancient civilization progressed much past the stone age, technologically. Stages of development of stone tools are pretty well documented, and most advances seem to have happened around the globe at much the same time. It’s not clear whether this is due to the technology spreading by culture, or whether it’s due to advancements in brainpower or language. But it’s hard to imagine much of a civilization growing with paleolithic toolkits, or one developing past the paleolithic without that spreading to other areas. We’d need to have some transportation barrier. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/22 "2013-04-03T16:19:30Z")
Wouldn’t one of the biggest factors be knowledge, the ‘standing on the shoulders of others’ stuff? I would think the lack of writing and preserving what was learned would be a limiting factor to progress in the past. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/23 "2013-04-03T16:48:09Z")
But we can find grindstones, clay pots, even flake flint knives, firepits, postholes for huts, rock circles for fireplaces, debris in caves… We have the evidence of eraly rock carvings from the Egyptian desert, we have cave drawings from 40,000BC. If humans ever got more agriculturally sophisticated than “toss some spare seeds in the ground here and wander by in 3 moons”, we have not seen the evidence. Yet sudddenl, about the same time they invent this in numerous locations in the last 10 millenia. Maybe it’s mental development, maybe it’s climate. There’s a theory that was popular a few decades ago that real consciousness only developed in the last 4,000 to 5,000 years; the “gods” speaking to men that ancient stories refer to (like the Illiad) were men beginning to hear their conscious brain talking to them or some such. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/24 "2013-04-03T17:13:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not really - vast swathes of Central, West and North Africa have never had that kind of attention paid to it, mostly being under jungle and desert. Only the Rift Valley and some sites in Southern Africa have received anything remotely approaching the kind of study that’s been put into Iron Age European or Near east Bronze Age archaeology. There’s a lot still to find. > > Also, there’s a lack of local funding for African archaeology, so it’s whatever grabs the outside donors. Currently, that seems to be hominid and early human studies, not early civilizations. > > Look at how often the people in those “race realist” threads on these boards don’t know/refuse to believe that some African civilizations independently developed agriculture and iron and steel working. > > I’m not saying I personally think there’s some lost civilization, just that we haven’t looked everywhere in Africa. OK, but we haven’t look “everywhere” in Eurasia by that measure, either. > [@md2000](#): > > There’s a theory that was popular a few decades ago that real consciousness only developed in the last 4,000 to 5,000 years; the “gods” speaking to men that ancient stories refer to (like the Illiad) were men beginning to hear their conscious brain talking to them or some such. From the book “The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind”. Never got any real traction among scientists. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/25 "2013-04-03T17:14:09Z")
> [@XT](#): > > around 60k years ago human population also contracted severely, and we almost went extinct as a species. Again, from memory, our population dropped to a few thousand, and it took a long time for us to start the long process of expanding out from Africa again and spreading out. You have a long memory. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/26 "2013-04-03T18:15:04Z")
How about Monte Verde (Northern Chile). This town appears to have been inhabited 14.000 years ago-long before the last Ice Age. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/27 "2013-04-03T18:24:51Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > There’s a theory that was popular a few decades ago that real consciousness only developed in the last 4,000 to 5,000 years; the “gods” speaking to men that ancient stories refer to (like the Illiad) were men beginning to hear their conscious brain talking to them or some such. I like this in theory, but it forces us to accept a substantial, spontaneous, widespread, synchronous, superevolutionary change in brain chemistry that affected a single species (OK, maybe it affected the dolphins, too, but lacking thumbs and motivation they decided to keep on being fishy). I can’t buy it–I’m pretty sure even my _cat_ has an inner monologue, although it wouldn’t really be of much use since all it would ever say is “meow meowmeowmeow…” **PlainJain** may have a big chunk of the answer with the potential of written language being a big aid to advancement, but cave paintings are a form of symbolic communication that existed for a curiously long time before getting refined into an acceptable substitute for speech. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/28 "2013-04-03T19:01:03Z")
Yeah, generally an evolutionary advance happens due to mutation, which then spreads among the population. I wonder if Jane has it right, except the major change was teh development of speech rather than those other means of communicating. (Writing is quite recent, relatively). [http://www.drsheedy.com/our-2-minds/development-of-speech-and-hearing.php](http://www.drsheedy.com/our-2-minds/development-of-speech-and-hearing.php) > [@](#): > > Many questions remain regarding speech development in humans. Some experts suggest speech may have begun even 3-6 million years ago, but with a lengthy intermediate stage from ape language to human language. The throat and ear bones of Neanderthals from 500,000 years ago indicate some ability for speech, although it certainly was not spoken as clearly as today. de Boer has analyzed the evidence concerning speech development and concludes that modern adaptations for speech developed between 1.5 million and 500,000 years ago. Late Homo erectus probably had some speech, and early Neanderthals and Homo sapiens likewise had speech. The transition to the facial and neck traits needed for modern speech probably did not occur until only 40,000 years ago – at about the same time as significant human culture began. The odd thing then, is how would something like speech capability infiltrate the throats of a widely diverse species across 4 continents in and around 50,000BC? There does not seem to be evidence (maybe there is?) of a wave of homo blabberensis flooding outward and over previosus h. sapiens populations, as we see with the replacement of neanderthals? So presumably either this was a trait that evolved before out-of-Africa, or it is a trait that evolved from Sydney to Lisbon simultaneously for the human race? Or does a trait spread genetically across the world faster than we think possible? If we were talking a mile a minute for 90,000-plus years before dreaming up agricculture, then it’s certainly a matter of more talking than thinking. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/29 "2013-04-03T19:53:01Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > How about Monte Verde (Northern Chile). This town appears to have been inhabited 14.000 years ago-long before the last Ice Age. ‘Town’ is a bit grand for a few huts. 😉 I don’t think there is any evidence that the inhabitants were doing agriculture, IIRC we are talking about a few stone hearths, some animal bones and some evidence of perhaps some permanent or semi-permanent wooden structures (huts and the like). There is equal evidence from the Clovis culture that obviously crossed to the Americas over the Bering straight land bridge during the same time period, and plenty of equal evidence other parts of the world of similar technological capabilities at the same or even earlier times. ---
**Author:** ![EdwardLost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbe5ce/32.png) [@EdwardLost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdwardLost)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/30 "2013-04-03T20:13:54Z")
In a previous thread a few years ago someone posted a link to a paper discussing the stable-climate hypothesis. Unfortunately I don’t have time at the moment to search for it. To me the most plausible explanations are: 1. Fully-sapient man did not evolve until 50k to 45k years ago. Whether the last piece of the puzzle was a gene affecting language, or symbolic thinking, or whatever, I don’t know, but the lack of art and sophisticated tools before this time indicates that those humans were not quite “us” and were probably not mentally capable of developing civilization. 2. Civilization requires agriculture. 3. The ice-age climate was too unstable for agriculture to develop. The first agricultural crops were domesticated accidentally by a process in which humans first gathered the plants, then discovered how to grow them from seeds, then began unconsciously selecting for more suitable seeds. In any particular location this required a continuous, local population of humans, and conditions suitable for the growing of the proto-crop to be continuous over thousands of years. But during the ice age climate changed too rapidly. The proto-crops would die and the people would switch to other foods or move off or die off themselves. ---
**Author:** ![EdwardLost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbe5ce/32.png) [@EdwardLost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdwardLost)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/31 "2013-04-03T20:38:06Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The odd thing then, is how would something like speech capability infiltrate the throats of a widely diverse species across 4 continents in and around 50,000BC? There does not seem to be evidence (maybe there is?) of a wave of homo blabberensis flooding outward and over previosus h. sapiens populations, as we see with the replacement of neanderthals? So presumably either this was a trait that evolved before out-of-Africa, or it is a trait that evolved from Sydney to Lisbon simultaneously for the human race? Or does a trait spread genetically across the world faster than we think possible? If we were talking a mile a minute for 90,000-plus years before dreaming up agricculture, then it’s certainly a matter of more talking than thinking. To me it’s not inconceivable that such an outward flooding did occur. Fully-modern humans could have evolved in some little valley and then come pouring out into the wider world, breeding with but mostly replacing the _Homo not-quite-sapiens_ already there. With better tools and hunting techniques, they could have easily out-competed the locals. Being nomadic they could have reached all the inhabitable reaches of the old world in a few thousand years. Because they anatomically resembled those they replaced we would not really see this in the human fossil record. The biggest stumbling block in the scenario is Australia. Did the Aborigines really reach Australia before the Great Leap Forward in the rest of the world? If so, that blows the hypothesis. I wouldn’t be surprised though if advances in dating show that the settling of Australia was post Leap. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/32 "2013-04-03T20:48:23Z")
I haven’t seen trade mentioned. I’ve read that there were extensive pre-civilisation trade routes, tens of thousands of years before agriculture, attested by things being found far from their points of origin. Indeed, isn’t that hypothesised to be one of Homo Sapiens key advantages over the Neanderthals - they didn’t trade; we did? Traders would have spread technology and knowledge very quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/33 "2013-04-03T21:28:48Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > How about Monte Verde (Northern Chile). This town appears to have been inhabited 14.000 years ago-long before the last Ice Age. The [most recent major glaciation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period) began about 110,000 years ago and ended about 10,000 years ago. Monte Verde dates to near the end of the last Ice Age, not before it. As has been said, it was a small village of hunter-gatherers, and would hardly be considered as “civilized.” ---
**Author:** ![EatTheSun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@EatTheSun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EatTheSun)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/34 "2013-04-03T22:25:22Z")
I don’t have anything constructive to add, but I figured I’d stop in and say that this is a super interesting thread - exactly the kind of stuff that’s kept me reading SD boards for the last 10 years! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/35 "2013-04-03T22:50:55Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The odd thing then, is how would something like speech capability infiltrate the throats of a widely diverse species across 4 continents in and around 50,000BC? If there was such a mutation event (or series of events), it would have happened in Africa before the dispersal of _H. sapiens_ across the globe. And it probably would have been about language. What scientist call “fully articulate” language. I imagine it as something like an ability to conceive of and talk about the future. Imagine being able to speak about the past, but not about the future. Or, an ability to link together different sensory inputs. One scientist postulated that pre-modern _Homo_ could see a flower as being beautiful and seeing her daughter as being beautiful but not being able to think that her daughter was “as beautiful as a flower”. At any rate, we can only speculate since we don’t know in what order we acquired the different mental capabilities that we have. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/36 "2013-04-04T07:50:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, but we haven’t look “everywhere” in Eurasia by that measure, either. Oh, definitely we haven’t. Lots of great stuff still waiting to be discovered on the Eurasian steppes, for instance, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/37 "2013-04-04T13:16:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Oh, definitely we haven’t. Lots of great stuff still waiting to be discovered on the Eurasian steppes, for instance, I’m sure. Interesting enough, in the heart of Europe, too. Recently, there was a discovery of Neanderthal bones in Greece, and the commentary stated that because there is so much archeological work focused on the Classical Era that not much has focused on stone age cites. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/38 "2013-04-04T13:27:35Z")
There have been some significant finds recently. For example, the age of the first use of pottery (for bowls and the like) has been pushed back to well before the Neolithic Revolution - to the middle of the last ice age. > **[Oldest pottery hints at cooking's ice-age origins](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21985-oldest-pottery-hints-at-cookings-ice-age-origins/)** > > Fragments of pots from a Chinese cave are 20,000 years old, and may have been used to cook food during the depths of the last ice age This is contrary to what I had learned; 20 years ago it was widely assumed that pottery went hand in hand with agriculture. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/39 "2013-04-04T14:30:51Z")
Yes and no. It would be surprising if there was a second wave of human migration that happened but left no record. > **[Mitochondrial Eve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve)** > > In human genetics, the Mitochondrial Eve (also mt-Eve, mt-MRCA) is the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all living humans. In other words, she is defined as the most recent woman from whom all living humans descend in an unbroken line purely through their mothers and through the mothers of those mothers, back until all lines converge on one woman. > In terms of mitochondrial haplogroups, the mt-MRCA is situated at the divergence of macro-haplogroup L into L0 and L1–6. As of 2013... This gives a more recent timeline - 70Ka to the Middle East, 60Ka-45Ka beyond that. Perhaps speech, and the ability to conceptualize and plan which would eventually follow, was the breakthrough that made _homo yadayada_ successful. There may be things left to be discovered in the more obscure areas of the world, but consider - the reason there are typically civilizations are their location on fertile plains, river valleys, and other choke points of human traffic. It’s no surprise that in the best locations, repeated city-building has left hills of used civilizations for us to dig through. the only possible interesting sites would be those where climate change or river changes have left a once-fertile area abandoned. Sites that qualify for that from pre-ice-age should be easy to identify. Plus, with the value of civilization’s tools, humans rarely forget the basics. Bows and arrows, boats, clay pots, metal working, domesticated animals, agriculture - if all these are recent inventions, then any pre-ice-age civilization must have been pretty unsophisticated. Clay is not difficult to figure out- leave something in the sun for a few hours and voila! hard rock. use it with fire one day, and hey! This stuff no longer softens when you add water… Hmm, I wonder if I can use it to hold water? Oh, look, mice don’t gnaw on rocks, if we seal this clay pot we can keep wheat in it… The problem is, and same problem for trade - nomads don’t accumulate a lot of goods, especially before they acquired large numbers of beasts of burden. Clay pots are useful if you are in the winter campground but not something you’d haul around in volume; it is more useful for permanent dwellings. Similarly, you might trade with the neighbours, or even bypass a few tribes and go all the way down the river to the source of that wonderful purple dye… but established merchants, trade as a way of life, presumes a much greater infrastructure than you would find with nomadic hunter-gatherers. For all the talk about how much of our civilization would disappear in short order, we have left indelible marks on the landscape, and underneath it. Tunnels and mines, even if silted up, would be incontrovertible reminders. Asphalt roads, roads or rail linesthrough the desert that get buried in the sand… (Many of the fantastically preserved temples of old Egypt are in great shape after 3,000 years because they were under the sand and not subject to water destruction.) Rock contstruction would also endure. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668/40 "2013-04-04T14:36:26Z")
Agriculture was a prerequisite for civilization, agreed. But some in this thread seem to assume that agriculture was an obvious choice to be made by our species, if only we had the wit way back when. The problem is that the untold progress made possible by agriculture was not evident to the first farmers, quite the contrary. Skeletal remains of the very first farming populations in the Fertile Crescent show that people were shorter in stature, had new kinds of nutritional deficiencies, worse teeth etc., than their direct hunter-gatherer ancestors. Why did societies in the Fertile Crescent turn into agriculture, then? Back in the 1960’s it was first hypothesized that environmental change, which made hunting worse locally, was the impetus for early agriculture. Göbekli Tepe, a recent, unique site mentioned by **Shagnasty** hint that people in the area were engaging in mass activities that supported the switch to foodstuffs that could support crowds, stirring the chicken-and-egg-dilemma juicily. Certainly, the Fertile Crescent had the best possible native flora and fauna to work with. At the same time as the first farmers in the Middle East based their living on wheat and goat, and rice and maize cultivation was possibly just beginning in China and Central America, Eurasian hunter-gatherer societies spread north to colonize the lands that had emerged from beneath the continental ice. Subsisting on game animals such as moose, deer, beaver and waterfowl was more than a passable option, as evidenced by early Holocene burial grounds in Northern Russia: the dead are near as tall as modern people, with appreciably stronger bones (and once muscles) and better teeth than we have. The material culture of these populations is every bit as advanced as at the earliest farming dwelling sites – the main difference at that point was that agricultural centers supported a much higher population density, although semi- or even fully sedentary, hierarchical societies did rise in Stone Age Northern Europe, all on hunting and gathering. Cereal crops and domestic animals were staples in the Fertile Crescent by 11 000 BP, yet the first agricultural societies in Central Europe emerged not until a full 5 000 years later. In Northern Europe, it’s archaeologically evident that local hunter-gatherer societies, who were certainly in contact with early farmers, did not make the switch until much later, accompanied by a deteriorating environment after the mid-Holocene climatic optimum, just some 3 - 5 000 years ago. People apparently chose not to farm, until hunting and gathering didn’t work as well as it used to be. Recent genetic and isotope studies have confirmed that in many places in prehistoric Europe the hunter-gatherers never turned into agriculturalists via cultural diffusion, as was widely hypothesized in post-WW II archaeology, but were effectively displaced by invading agricultural peoples, just as happened time and again in the historical period - only the first time around it was due to sheer asymmetry in numbers and disease, not because of any technological superiority. The same scenario likely played out on every continent where indigenous agriculture was developed prehistorically. It is obvious to us how agriculture changed the world, but it took a whole lot of farming under rare, optimal conditions to get much anywhere, culturally. Attempts at domestication may have occurred untold times before it stuck the few times it did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-civilizations-before-the-last-ice-age/654668.md?page=3)