Human civilizations before the last ice-age?

I think this is an argument for the stable-climate hypothesis. The one thing the old and new worlds had in common is the ending of the ice age.

My guess: In a stable environment populations will grow until the food supply becomes limiting within a few centuries. The domestication of crops takes a few thousand years beyond that. Given the presence of humans, a stable climate, and suitable proto-crops the development of agriculture is practically inevitable. The biggest variable is the nature of the available plants: how easy they are to grow, how amenable to domestication, and how much of a reward can be gained from the effort.

Why? Because Humans aren’t known to hump anything that looks…mammalian…and then run like hell when it gets knocked up? :smiley:

I read somewhere that prior to the end of the ice age, Vikings were able to skate to New Zealand and were then eaten by the Maori. Unfortunately, glaciers have erased most of the evidence, and the Maori and the government of New Zealand are in a conspiracy to cover up the rest.

Agricultural has massive, massive disincentives for early adopters. Heck, even today it sucks. The poorest people on this earth are farmers, and even in the most modern societies, small scale farming is often tied to a marginal existence.

Compared to hunting and gathering, it’s more work, for less prosperity, and introduces whole new levels of insecurity. Boatloads of new diseases developed and spread.

For women, it’s an exceptionally raw deal. Carrying and raising the number of kids needed to maintain a farm is pretty miserable, and quite likely to eventually kill you. And of course as we got used to property, we started to consider women property, and life started to suck in whole new ways.

So basically, we may have thought of it, but until our population got dense enough that hunting and gathering stopped being sustainable, it wasn’t an attractive system. I

Man! That thread is a trainwreck even by MY standards. :slight_smile:

I think the “rapid development” of agriculture in the New World is a misunderstanding of what it means to be a h/g. You move, all the time. It really doesn’t matter that they were only in the New World a short period of time, because no one* stayed put as h/gs. There is no reason to believe the folks in the M.E. who became agriculturalists were living as h/gs in that area for thousands of years rather than having migrated there from elsewhere.

*Speaking very generally here. Yes, there is evidence that settlements preceded agriculture, but not by that much on the timescales we’re talking about.

What do you mean no one stayed put? See my last post for reasoning. In addition to that, attempting to move to a new location almost certainly puts you at odds with the groups already using that location, meaning in addition to the other disincentives you also have to fight to move. Most HGs today (again, wish the exceptions of those who base their way of life around migratory animals) do generally stay put, moving only when forced by some natural disaster (flood, prolonged drought), or by another group fleeing such. Paleolithic sites show continuous habitation over generations, moving only when accumulated debris made a site unlivable, and even then they stayed in their general territory.

Most h/g today (and there are hardly any) don’t have the option to move around as they please.

But h/gs will follow game, or find different/better hunting grounds or get kicked out by invading h/gs or… It’s hard for a group to guard it’s territory for n generations without something bad happening. We’re talking thousands of years here, not just a generation or two.

His point seemed to be that the early Americans started from nothing and developed agriculture faster than people in the Old World had. Of course they started as the same people, but they probably didn’t carry any agriculture knowledge with them. The ‘stable climate’ idea that EdwardLost presented is one possible explanation. Receding glaciers would leave very fertile ground available across the northern hemisphere. But it would still require the wandering life of the HG to find the ideal locations to begin growing crops instead of looking for them. In the Americas there may have been more opportunities to find fertile land without competition from other HGs and plenty to hunt and gather while agriculture developed. But even noticing that more melons grow in the place where you spit the seeds doesn’t lead to agriculture when culture is based on constant movement. There have to be other factors that lead people to stay in one spot and develop agriculture over generations. If it’s not ideal location then factors such as overcrowding and overhunting must come into play.

The HGs in the Amazon and New Guinea who have had little or no contact with the outside world even recently, do stay in the same territory, often constructing settlements lasting for many generations. So do the modern day African ones, with the exception of the pastoralists. Writings from the first Europeans travelling the world who encountered HGs show much the same lifestyle. The creation of specialized weaponry and techniques between 100kya and 50kya also point to a sedentary lifestyle, since said weapons and techniques are useful against a limited variety of prey. To live off the land requires an intricate knowledge of the land, and such knowledge becomes useless when you move a significant distance away. Paleolithic sites in Britain required much work to build, suggesting they weren’t abandoned lightly. So do burial sites. Many places we find knapped stoned show long continuous habitation, with stones piled on top of each other over hundreds or thousands of years. Not, as would be expected in a nomadic lifestyle, small layers of stone production followed by lulls. Layers of ashes in hearths also point to staying in one place for an extended period of time, rather than moving around and lighting a fire where you happen to be. The invention of the hearth points to the same, since it would be too much time to invest in something that would only be used sparingly. Trade networks are needed when people stick to one general area as well, not so much if everyone is always roaming around.

I’m not saying their settlements were as permanent as ours, or that they didn’t roam dozens of miles to hunt. It’s just that they most were and still are far from as nomadic as the plains natives, who set up shelters for only a night or a few nights in pursuit of game all their lives. Hunter gatherers in general lived and continue to live a more sedentary life than we give them credit for. Why continuously wonder to new areas where you don’t know the food and game, where to find and how to catch them, where there are different plants you don’t know are edible or not? What’s the need to travel continuously when life is already so easy that you generally only have to spend a few hours a day on basic needs? Sure there are some exceptions: where the game is really scarce and the land can’t support people without travelling (Australia), where the lifestyle is based around a particular group of animals who roam widely (American bison), or when driven by lack of food due to extreme drought conditions. But they are the exceptions. Göbekli Tepe and Stonehenge weren’t built by farmers, but they weren’t built by nomads either.

They are agriculturalists, not hunter gatherers. It’s a common misconception that primitive agriculturalists are hunter gatherers. But they are not.

Especially in New Guinea, agriculture goes back thousands and thousands of years. There are no h/gs in New Guinea.

Who are these h/gs in the Amazon that you are referring to?

You didn’t summarize the cites, but basically what they’re saying is:

[ol]
[li]Human height dropped from 5"9 to 5"3 about the time we started farming[/li][li]Some studies by anthropologists of tribes such as the !kung, suggest that H-Gs spend far less time “working” than (pre-20th century) farmers[/li][li]Some speculation.[/li][/ol]

Is that a fair summary?

For the first point, there is some evidence that climate change (e.g. the “Younger dryas”) and the fact we’d driven much of the megafauna to near extinction, put strong pressures on humans. IOW, we were starving anyway, and agriculture was part of the solution, not the problem.

For the second point, some of those findings are in dispute; things like travel and food preparation time were not counted, and are significant.
Also, it seems that much of the spare time that H-Gs had they used for fighting, so going back to my original point, they still wouldn’t have had much time to think and experiment.

I will provide cites for these things, I can’t google around right now because I’m technically at work :wink:

So H-Gs engage in family planning? They figure “Hey we don’t need more than a couple kids, so let’s abstain/use protection after that”.

Or is it that farmers have more kids survive?

D’oh! My bad, no nitpicking in sight. It didn’t take 5000 years from 11 000 BP for agriculture to spread to Central Europe, rather some 3000 years, while the Southern Baltic took the 5k. But my point still remains: immense time periods went by with agriculture and hunting & gathering competing for the top spot.

There probably are not now, but there were tens of thousands just a few decades ago. Only about 1/3 of New Guinea supported agriculture. The rest of the island was populated by HGs.

[Quote=mijin]
So H-Gs engage in family planning? They figure “Hey we don’t need more than a couple kids, so let’s abstain/use protection after that”.

Or is it that farmers have more kids survive?
[/QUOTE]

Infanticide was probably a factor, but low body fat, sustained high endurance activity, and extended breast feeding can account for a lot. It probably wasn’t disease, which is rarer without animals and close quarters.

Farmers specifically and tirelessly seek out fertility. Fertility becomes the main factor in marriage, and infertile women are often discarded. Plumpness becomes sexy, and women are discouraged from strenuous physical activity that could affect their fertility (even today, many people believe you should not work out while mensterating, a holdover from how reproduction and physical activity are mentally linked).

Polygyny and young marriages ensures that men get a constant stream of fertile sex partners. Property, inheritance, and status are allocated such that men and women specifically seek to have as many children as possible, whether they feel like screwing or not. Mensteration taboos keep men focused on women at their most fertile time.

In other words, farmers don’t have a lot of kids out of normal screwing. It’s screwing specifically targeted at making at making lots of babies.

Even today, with some access to modern medicine, birth rates of 10-15 child mortality rates of 25% are common. Before antibiotics, 50% was not uncommon, and maternal mortality was insanely high. It’s hard to picture anyone doing worse at keeping their kids alive.

(Gotta say it’s surprising to see even sven misspell “menstruation”.)

Sorry, Darth Ayebaw, when I quoted you earlier I missed the part in brackets for some reason, and didn’t appreciate that your theory is that H-Gs and farmers would have had similar birth rates, but higher infant mortality (due to homicide) in the former case.

I’m not saying I agree, or that that’s entirely plausible, but my earlier objection was based on a misreading.

even sven I don’t find these just-so stories very convincing. The idea that ancient cultures would base their sexual behaviour only on a detailed and accurate awareness of many factors and long-term planning seems to fly in the face of every pre-modern culture we have historical evidence for.
For example:

So ancient cultures were aware that menstruation is the least fertile time, and managed to spread the meme that screwing at this time was bad for that reason.
And the far more visible phenomena of women bleeding and being in pain at this time were not the reason for the taboo?
Not to mention that where is the evidence that this taboo didn’t exist during H-G times, and did, universally, following agriculture?

Right, but my point wasn’t limited to diseases in the sense of infectious pathogens.
It was being claimed that H-Gs were healthier, and one measure of a woman’s health, surely, is being able to gestate.
Put it this way: why would some pregnancies fail? If it was insufficient calories or nutrients, then the mother would have been short of these too (you have to be severely malnourished to significantly increase the chances of a miscarriage). If it was trauma, well that suggests that the women were frequently injured.

Also it was claimed they didn’t spend so much time hunting, and didn’t travel much. So why are we assuming “high endurance activity” relative to farmers?

A simpler explanation is that humans like sex so as soon as infant mortality starts to come down, and absent birth control, large birth rates are the result.

Yet the implication here is that H-Gs were indeed significantly worse.

In Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond cites a number of studies showing greater health and less violence between HG and Ag people living in proximity.

In 1491, Charles Mann cites quite a bit of evidence that Native Americans in North America were healthier than their European coevals, during colonial times. Admittedly, the Native American population combined Ag and HG lifestyles – how do we count them? My guess is that they’re far more representative of HG than of early agricultural civilizations. Also admittedly, 17 century Euros don’t represent early ag civilizations very exactly.

IIRc from readings about American Indians, Aborigines in Australia, etc. - HG’s with a well established pattern tended to cycle around a few choice campsites. They would camp for a while until the local game was exhausted, then move to the next point on the circuit. For some Indian tribes, they would have highland ranges they covered in the summer from some camps, then move to sheltered winter quarters. Of course, a lot of this was influenced by - the buffalo migrations, the emerging agricultural tribes who pushed them out of the best happy hunting grounds, and a series of epidemics that preceded the general approach of white civilization, which decimated tribes and severely impacted their cultural viability. Interestingly, the agricultural societies were most impacted by the epidemics; visitors to the great plains after de Soto’s little jaunt found massive ruins of dead towns far away from where he camped. Plus, of course, the horse totally changed society and the face of war for these tribes.

So things like stone circle hearths for fires, even prepared ground for dwellings or rock “cornerstones” would be common with frequently-visited familiar campgrounds, but leaving a wood, bark, or leaf house abandoned for 3/4 of the year would probably mean almost as much work as starting from scratch; plus, in adverse climates they’d have tents or such that could be stuck up anywhere if they had that level of clothing tech.

If we accept that humans are essentially descended from a few thousand source population in about 70KBP, then presumably those final evolutionary traits like speech and conceptual thinking would have latest emerged best formed at that point. The idea that this population was under intense (selective?) pressure adds to the possibility.

They would not have to hump everything mammalian; just leaving one tribe behind in the neighbourhood, consider how few hundred years it would take for that capability to diffuse outward from a significantly more successful tribe to its neighbours. With better conceptual thinking and ability to communicate, it would be easier to plan and arrange assignations behind the back of that dull mute brute, thus spreading the smart genes. Not to mention better-planned hunting parties, better planned division of labour, better social cohesion.

(Recall that one theory says speech became a substitute for apes’ grooming as a social heirarchical social structure building activity - you can “service” abig group at once with gossip, rather than picking fleas off the superior ape one ape at a time. This allowed social groups to expand from a social-networking limit of about 20, to 50 or 100 - a bigger, more dangerous tribe. To reinforce this concept, the biggest item of gossip is - who’s sleeping with whom, who hates or likes whom…)

The plausible cycle is that HG’s would collect seeds as food. Left in a wet bag some might germinate; it’s not a big leap to see, “OK, this is exactly what we see poking out of the ground in the spring. Lets call these things ‘seeds’ and put them in the ground and see if we’re right.” From planting a crop and returning when it’s ready, to eventually getting enough food to allow them to stay for extended periods rather than haul it all with them, to experimenting with storage methods so the stuff kept until next harvest, to arriving a bit early to keep the damned crows off the developing crop… all steps that could emerge gradually until one year a tribe wakes up to they realized they were sitting in one place all year long spending most of their time tending to plants.