Human Cloning: American couple plans to be the first in 2003.

—Factoid: I saw a video a while ago on children who aged at about 10x the normal rate, and who died off before their teens.—

There’s another interesting point here that might be relevant to the issue: if these born-old kid’s lives are still worth living (and most would agree that they are), then would it be wrong to intentionally bear a child knowing that they might have such a condition? Just because they don’t live as long, or as well, as other humans is not necessarily a good reason to object to their existence. If all humans were like this, of course, it would be considered perfectly normal.

Likewise, would it be wrong to crossbreed a human and a pet, and create some sort of strange hybrid creature (assume, for the interim, that it would be viable, not medically damaged, just strange)? The resulting creature would seem to have as much right to exist as any other creature, wouldn’t it? Why would it’s existence, or it’s creation, be objectionable?

I’m not sure where I come down on those issues, but I do think if I do find a good answer, it could most certainly help me explain how I would feel about these parent’s actions, and the risks they are taking on their child’s potential condition.

*GUILLEN: Why not just adopt?

KATHY: Well, we have thought about that. You can adopt a baby overseas, and then in a lot of countries, what happens is by the time you get the baby, they’ve been so messed up in the orphanage where they are that you are taking on a health hazard.*

I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d been turned down for adoption at least once already, thus the familiar “those grapes are sour anyway” line of reasoning.

But more importantly, if Bill and Kathy don’t want to find themselves taking on a health hazard, why would they choose a method of reproduction almost guaranteed to result in death or deformity? It’s the moral equivalent of knowing what Thalidomide can do, but taking it anyway because morning sickness is both burdensome and unpleasant.

Neither do Bill and Kathy.

They have, or plan soon to have, both an egg donor and a surrogate. There’s apparently little wrong with Bill in the fertility department. They’re therefore well equipped for IVF, but they don’t want that either. Too safe and reliable, perhaps. And adoption? Don’t talk to them about adoption. Surrogate or baby be damned, if cloning humans is wrong at this point, they don’t want to be right.

That’s not merely selfish, it’s sociopathic.

Or at least it would be if I believed a word of it. Take a look at Zavos’ Klonez-R-Us web site sometime: I doubt he’s capable of cloning anything, but check out his quality web design and hosting services!

<hijack>

Oh, oh! Can I use your quote as a sig? :smiley:

</hijack>

What’s wrong with foreign children? They won’t look like you? Grow up.
Now, Identical Twins are technically offspring of the parent cell (or cells) that divided, so technically all identical twins are grandchildren. I am not familiar with techniques to determine whether someone is cloned or not, but i bet telomere size is a good place to start. (that would work only from cells cloned from adult cells, IIRC.) Telomeres are the endcaps that **robertliguori
** mentioned.

yes, it would, if it couldn’t be created naturally. Mules aren’t freaks of nature since horses and donkeys get it on, but Human/Lizard people are because we cannot fetilize lizard eggs under any normal circumstance.

After it exists it has the right to, but not before. It also has the right to end it’s own life.

Where is the line to draw on wether it is human or not? would the Man-Beast have protection under laws for humans or animal cruelty? What if the Man-Beast is more intelligent than people with brain damage or mental problems, is it right to keep him in a downgraded state of citizenship? Should Man-Beasts vote, hold office jobs, marry your daughter? Are they covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act? What about 3/4Man-1/4Beast people? or 7/8Man, what percentage counts? What if the Man-Beast resents his role and instead kidnaps the Mad Scientists beautiful blonde daughter/lab assistant and the Hero is forced to save her while the villagers chase the monster with torches?

No, Tars, I meant that they allegedly said the would just abort a “defective” fetus if it didn’t work out. This was the part that I didn’t see in the article.

oh, sorry, must’ve misunderstood you. nevermind that part then.

Debaser:

From http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0208/12/cct.00.html

God, these people make me mad, but my opinions would better be expressed in the Pit, not here.

First of all, please stop refering to children with birth defects as “monsters”. They are not monsters, they are human beings. If you suffered a crippling disease would that turn you into a monster? Please.

Second, those of you who advocate headless clone ranching. Have you stopped for a second to consider–not the morality–but the practicality of this procedure? Consider for a moment the cost. How much does it cost to maintain someone in intensive care for years, on the off chance you might need a transplant? A person without a brain is going to require 24 hour intensive care. They are going to be lying in a hospital bed, hooked up to catheters, IVs, feeding tubes, and monitors from the first day of their lives.

How are you going to pay for all this? How many nurses and doctors are going to find this kind of work rewarding…intensive care for people that are going to be killed at your whim? I can’t imagine many people would chose to do this.

And where are you going to find the women who are willing to carry these headless babies to term? Uterine replicators are science fiction, we wouldn’t even know where to begin. You can’t grow babies in a tank. So you are going to have to find someone willing to carry a baby for 9 months, merely to create a THING. Yes, there are women who are willing to be surrogate mothers, but most of them do so because they are helping to create a human baby, not a tissue culture. Do you know any woman who would do this? How much would you have to pay them?

And where are you going to find doctors willing to pith a growing baby at the embryo stage? The embryo is growing and dividing…what kind of doctor is going to destroy an embryo’s brain?

Headless clone ranching is clearly immoral. However, even if you all don’t agree, it doesn’t matter, because the PRACTICAL barriers are so great. And if we reach the point where we can grow headless babies in tanks, it seems pretty certain that we could grow whole organs. Headless clone ranching may be practical for Third-world dictators or a small number of ruthless and amoral businessmen, but it will never be practical for a normal person. So can be please stop worrying about it, or looking forward to it?

Now, how about creating circus freaks? Listen people, this is similar to the quandry posed by genetic engineering. And there is a very simple ethical principle that we can follow here. The trouble with genetic engineering is that the person on whom the procedure is performed–the baby–doesn’t exist yet. And so therefore it cannot either consent or decline the procedure. But, we perform medical procedures on children currently.

We allow parents to make medical decisions for children right now. But there are limits. You can’t take your child to the doctor and ask the doctor to amputate the child’s limbs, or give them fur, or mutilate them. Any doctor that performs surgery on a child to turn them into a circus freak will be disbarred, and face criminal charges, even if the parents authorize it. Any medical procedure on a person, even a minor child, must be done for the benefit of that person. Therefore, any genetic engineering–or human/animal hybridizing–must be done FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PERSON BEING MODIFIED. Turning a person into a circus freak through genetic engineering is wrong, for the same reason that turning a person into a circus freak via surgery is wrong–unless the person can give informed consent.

We can imply consent for many procedures–curing genetic disease, even enhancing health, strength, or intelligence. But we cannot imply consent for turning a baby into a natural slave, or giving them sub-human intelligence, or deforming them. The argument that since a deformed person has a right to life, we therefore have an obligation to create deformed people is laughable. The simple standard is that if a reasonable person would consent to have the procedure performed upon themeselves, then it would be ethical for the parents of the baby to have the procedure performed. And we can discount people who WANT to be circus freaks as unreasonable. Perhaps someday in the future, everyone will want long green tendrils. Until then, it would be immoral and illegal for you to modify a baby to have long green tendrils.

Now, on to cloning healthy babies. Obviously, cloning simply creates a human baby, with all the legal protections that any other human baby would have. But, who is the parent of the clone? Well, consider this. We already have children of uncertain parentage. They are adopted children. If a couple, or even a single person, has a clone created, and takes the baby home and raises the baby, then they are the parent of that baby. When the birth certificate is written, the parents are listed. Those are the parents of the baby, no matter who the genetic donor is.

The doctor is not the parent, the genetic donor’s parents are not the parents, the nurses are not the parents, no corporation is the parent. We already allow surrogate motherhood. We allow egg donation. We allow sperm donation. We allow the combination of the three procedures. We allow adoption. If a couple got a donated egg, donated sperm, fertilized the egg via IVF, then hired a surrogate mother to carry the baby to term, they are still the parents of the baby. Not the egg donor, not the sperm donor, not the surrogate mother. The genetic identity of the child is irrelevant.

Now, a question could come if the genetic donor did not consent to the genetic donation…suppose someone stole Michael Jordan’s tissue sample. Well, we already have situtations that are similar. One standard is to go by the best interests of the child. If someone stole the genetic sample and used it to create a cloned child, then that could be evidence that they would be an unfit parent. And so their parental rights could be terminated, and the baby placed up for adoption.

Remember, adoption is key here. Genetic parents can have their rights terminated by the state. And un-related people can be designated parents of the child by the state. So the genetic identity of the baby need not determine who has to raise the baby, or who has to pay child support.

But what about the idea that we “own” our genome? But consider this. My sisters are clones. Naturally occuring clones, but clones. Now, suppose one of my sisters agrees to donate eggs to an infertile couple. Does my other sister have the right to veto that decision? After all, those eggs are genetically the same as her eggs. Harvesting the gametes of an identical twin is the same as harvesting the gametes of the other. But we can clearly see that my sisters have no say in the reproductive decisions of the other. And my mother and father have no say in their reproductive decisions either. And I as their brother have no say in their reproductive decisions. So if one of my sisters clones herself, does that make my other sister the parent of the clone? Of course not.

So the fact that a person has the same DNA as you means precisely nothing, legally. They are not you, they are not your slave, they are not your property. They are also not neccesarily your child, or your parent’s child, or your brother or your sister. Their relationship to you is determined not by their DNA but by their social position. If you raise them as your child, then they are your child. If your parents raise them as their child, then they are your sibling. If strangers raise the baby, then they are legally unrelated to you. And your relationship to that person can change, if courts find that the parents of that child are unfit.

Cloning presents no new ethical problems, all we have to do is follow clear workable precedents. Corporations cannot own people, slavery is illegal, identical twins are ethically unremarkable, adoption is common, and unfit parents can have their parental rights terminated.

However, that doesn’t mean that cloning is a smart decision. Since it is not clear that cloning is safe, an ethical doctor would not perform the procedure. It is still experimental. And it is extremely wasteful of gametes. Currently, the procedure to harvest human eggs is difficult, and somewhat dangerous. Since every successful cloning requires perhaps 100 human eggs to get one viable embryo, the supply of human eggs is a severe limiting factor. If you were pretty sure that you would need only one or two eggs to get a clone, then it would be a problem. But it generally takes hundreds, and each egg harvest only supplies a few eggs. So to create one clone would require perhaps dozens of egg harvests.

And of course many–if not most–and possibly ALL–mammal clones are showing health problems of various sorts. If cloning were just as likely to create a healthy baby as normal in vitro fertilization then there would be no problem. But that is not the case. If the first few cloned babies are born with severe health problems then this is going to spark a tremendous anti-cloning backlash. Cloning currently is not safe. It is not wise. It is not ethical. CURRENTLY. But when it becomes as safe as IVF then cloning presents no new ethical problems.

They tried IVF in December of 1998 and it didn’t take. Also, according to the article, Bill has a low sperm count. From what I read, I didn’t see them as in a hurry to be the first to have a cloned baby. I saw it as the last option they had to actually produce a baby besides adoption, which was an option they didn’t like.

**

Don’t try and paint me as a racist because you disagree with me. The couple didn’t say this. They didn’t like the idea of children from overseas because they felt they were a health hazard.

**

…And again, what makes them so sure of the fact that overseas babies present health hazards? As others have said, overseas kids have health hazards, but cloning doesn’t?

Thanks for clearing that up Wrong Girl. I missed that point.

I don’t really see any problem with aborting a fetus that is going to have a serious abnormality. For instance, I would not wish to bring a child into the world that has Down’s syndrome.

What I want to know is: how much more can be learned from testing cloning on animals? Are we at the right point in development of this technology that a human clone is acheivable? If not, then when?

What I mean is, if there is only a 1% chance that the baby will be “normal”, I would consider it to be immoral (and a waste of time/effort) to keep attempting a clone and aborting the results. But, if success was 99% guaranteed, I would say go for it. But, we will never know for until someone tries. And it will never be 100% sure.

Yet you agree with them. Are all foreigners diseased?

Small problem there. Define “serious abnormality,” Brain damage? what if the child was simply deaf? Or blind? or hard of hearing but not deaf? how about destined to grow up overweight?

A lot more can be learned, like how to do it successfully more than 1% of the time for starters, then how to make sure the results aren’t a carnival of horrors. We are NOT at the point where healthy human clones are viable, and anyone who says otherwise is a damn liar.(That moron from the article, for one) We won’t be for years, Dolly hasn’t even died of old age yet, just to give some perspective on how new this is.

IIRC, success in IVF is not 99% either, that’s why they implant 5 or so embryos at a time. Cloning will not be 99% safe anytime soon. It will not be 40% safe anytime soon, and probably not even 10% safe anytime soon. And forging ahead just because someone wants his name in the paper is ignorant and morally sick.

I’ve always dreamed, from my earliest memories and most tender years, to be used in a sig line. My parents scoffed at my dream, my grandparents were befuddled, but nevertheless I persisted with unblinking fortitude and cast iron resolve. Even after the admissions officer at sig-line college called me “the worst thing to happen to sig-lines since Bartlett’s Familiar Quotations”, still did I persist and face my hurdles with the stony-eyed determination of an atheist in a foxhole. Finally, all my dreams are within reach!

I’d like to thank the Academy, my friends, well-wishers, pretty much all dogs, that neat-looking special spoon they use for Black and Tans, barley and hops, Terry Gilliam’s mother, Jack Black from Tenacious D, the Brown and Williamson tobacco company, Herbie the Love Bug, Teri Garr circa “Young Frankenstein”, and of course lipbalm.

First, whether an embryo will “take” in Kathy or not is irrelevant, as they plan to rely on a surrogate for that purpose anyway. Second, a low sperm count is a non-issue with IVF, as the fertilization is performed manually. But even if Bill’s sperm count was zero, they could still get what they need from a donor, same as the egg.

Their “This is our last and only option to produce a baby” excuse for cloning is as transparent as their “We bought a used car once, it gave us nothing but trouble” objection to adoption. It’s bullshit. If Bill and Kathy believe that reproduction is the be-all of their relationship, perhaps they should divorce and find partners who are more fecund instead.

And another thing:

BILL: … If there is serious abnormality, absolutely we will – and Dr. Zavos concurs that we will abort.

Say you hire out your birthing services to a surrogate, as Bill and Kathy plan to do: can you arbitrarily tell the woman “whoops, its got flippers for limbs, we demand you abort it this instant?”

What if the surrogate were to refuse for any reason? Could Bill and Kathy compel her to terminate the pregnancy against her will? What if the deformity was latent and undetectable until sometime after legal abortion ceased to be an option?

On the other hand, what if there were gestational complications that posed a risk greater than the surrogate wanted to bear? If she decided to terminate the pregnancy in the interest of her own safety, could Bill and Kathy compel her to carry the baby to term?

The legal ramifications of this adventure are as horrific as the medical ones.

I think that ultimately, the problems with the couple boil down to this: they are selfish and desperate, and were unfortunate enough to fall into the hands of Dr. Zavos, who exploited their hopes with preemptive blather about cloning.

I’m not sure who I hold more responsible for creating this cloning nightmare: Dr. Zavos for being so scientifically irresponsible (I have serious doubts that he’s in this purely for the joy this will bring to Bill and Kathy - I think he sees this as his ticket to history books), or Bill and Kathy for being so deluded and selective with their love.

**

I never said I agree with them. It is their choice to adopt or not to. I have never looked into adoption myself, so I don’t know enough about it to verify if thier fears are warranted. It seems reasonable to me that what they are saying could be true.

**

I quoted them directly. Can you point out the part where they said all foreigners are diseased?

**

I don’t know exatly where to draw the line here. I don’t think anyone does until they are put in that position. The other complicating factor that you didn’t mention yet is at what point in the pregnancy do these things become known. Lets say there was a way to tell the day that the baby was conceived if it were going to be blind, hard of hearing, or overweight. I don’t think it would be immoral to take two birth control pills that day. (this would end the pregnancy.) Of course, this gets murky the closer you get to term. I wouldn’t agree with aborting a baby the day before it’s due because of these same defects.

**

I was under the impression that the anti-cloning people in this thread were against the very idea of cloning at all. I am certainly open to the possibility that it is too early for an attempt at a human clone. Would you ever be in favor of a human clone?

At what point do you feel it will be safe to attempt a human clone? After Dolly dies of old age? When 50% of animal attempts are successful? Never?

I just don’t see these people as ignorant and morally sick. Their names are not in the paper. They are doing interviews confidentially. Even extended family members won’t know the baby is a clone. Painting these people as evil seems dishonest to me. Maybe they are too eager to proceed when it’s not safe, but I don’t think they are bad people.

**

I didn’t realize that there was a surrogate involved. This certainly throws a wrench into the works. Legally and morally.

KoalaBear, SUPERKARLENE and others who are painting these people as selfish, desperate, and morally bankrupt: I question your motives. I wonder whether all of you would be opposed to any couple who tried cloning, regardless of their morals or reasons.

If people are against the idea of cloning, I wish they would come right out and say it, rather than trying to smear this couple, or clain that the time simply isn’t right.

You’re right, Debaser. This whole thing is a legal-moral train wreck. :frowning:

This couple has shown at least twice that they have a blatant disregard for the feelings of others. Allow me to illustrate:

Despite the fact that they are using a surrogate mother, they still want to reserve the option of an abortion. Notice that they don’t say “After consulting with the surrogate, we’ll abort.” Instead, Bill asserts, “Absolutely, we will…abort.” No consideration whatsoever for the feelings of the woman who is carrying their child. Imagine the trouble it would be to find a woman willing to carry the cloned baby. Then, after they accomplish Operation Needle in Haystack, get the woman all pregnant and raring to go, they say “OOPS!! Monster (their word, not mine) alert! Abort! Abort!” Let’s say that the surrogate is five months pregnant. She’s felt little Kathy kicking around in there for a while. She kinda likes the lil Clonester growing inside her. And then she has to abort. I’ve never known a woman who found an abortion easy. Bill and Kathy’s eagerness to inflict one upon a stranger is stunning - and is only evidence of their tunnel vision to get that baby.

Another reason to concur that these people are not taking into consideration the feelings of others:

And Kathy’s response:

Kathy is not answering the question. Guillen want’s to know if she’s prepared to deal with any anger that her clone-daughter might have. Kathy says nothing about dealing with her future child. Instead, she dismisses this as a possibility - “She can never think of herself as a freak!” Of course it’s impossible, Kathy! After all, children never get angry at their parents, right? :smack: Kathy isn’t considering the feelings of her future cloneling. She’s blinded by her need to procreate. Unless and until she can allow the possibility of the needs of someone else superseding her own, she is not ready to have children (whether they are cloned or not).

Some more evidence that a few million brain cells have taken a holiday:

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I find anyone who claims to know the will of God to be suspect. No Pat, God didn’t tell you that 9-11 was the result of American heathenism, and no Kathy, God didn’t whisper in your ear to tell you to clone yourself.

Debaser, I also take exception to your claim that we’re all closet opponents of cloning. Done properly, I think it could be a wonderful thing. Hey Geordi, lose an eye? Here’s a new one for you! Pesky alcoholism ruining your liver? Let’s grow another one for you to destroy!

But growing children on demand like a body farm scares me. What if Bill Gates were to say “Hey! When I die, taxes will take all my money! And my minions will kill my company! I know! I’ll pay a scientist to clone me! Then, when I die, I’ll take my own place!” :wink:

We are socially undeveloped at this time to deal with cloning. We’re about to make entirely new human beings. And growing them to do exclusively what we want smacks of human rights violations. Bringing someone into the world only to have them serve you and your needs is just a new brand of slavery. In the words of Thomas Jefferson, we have a right to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

If born or raised in America, that child will have none of those.
No life - oops, your life was already lived by someone else. And now that you’re here, we want you to live like them too.
No liberty - a clone would be forever encased in the mold of the person who’d lived in their genes before them. And if the science is to be believed, they’d be imprisoned by their own advanced aging.
No chance of happiness - religious zealots claiming you have no soul, parents not sure what to do with you since you’re just a carbon copy, a government that announced you should never have existed. Not to mention legal troubles (maybe the surrogate decides they want to keep you).

The only possible way that I see cloning being culturally successful is if it’s anonymous. The clone wouldn’t know who it was a copy of, and that way it could live without the baggage of false expectations.

Does it really, honestly, seem reasonable to you that the majority of overseas babies that could be adopted (I use the term majority because of their quote–“in a lot of countries”–a lot, being to me a majority) are mentally deranged and a “health hazard”? Come on. That’s not true. What’s true is that there have been cases of certain mental diseases among Eastern European (specifically Romanian) babies that have been brought to the U.S. I have not heard of any other documented widespread cases of babies from LOTS of countries being mental health hazards.

And second verse, same as the first–if they’re so goddamn scared of a baby with a health hazard, why are they choosing to have a clone NOW?

I think I would, after many, many studies had been conducted. To my mind, it has to be proven at least relatively safe before we can attempt to do it with a real human being. And right now, it is not at that stage.

And how about you, Debaser? When do you think it would be okay to clone someone? Do you honestly believe that attempting to clone a human being right now is a good, safe, choice, and will result in a healthy child? If you don’t believe that it’s safe, how can you say that this couple isn’t ignorant?

After preview, I would like to tip my hat to SuperKarlene for being so eloquent.

I humbly thank thee, The Wrong Girl. :slight_smile: