# Human Cloning Thread-\> Reality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2001, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166 "2001-11-25T17:39:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/21 "2001-11-26T20:43:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > Fixing that little bugger would take a retrovirus of some sort Should have prefixed that statement with a caveat: WAG. However, the ends of DNA stuff—telomere?—is correct last I have read. I am not sure how cloning organs would allow us to beat the telomere issue. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/22 "2001-11-26T20:52:15Z")
I don’t get it: you start with an egg, then destroy part of it to inject other stuff? Why not go with the egg you already had? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/23 "2001-11-27T17:07:28Z")
According to the press releases A.C.T. put out, this cloning process involves injecting cells with a full set of DNA into an egg cell. Sometimes, the DNA of the injected cell will displace the egg’s own haploid DNA, and then you will have what amounts to a “zygote” whose DNA happens to be identical to that of the injected cell, rather than a diploid combination of the egg’s DNA and some sperm cell’s DNA. The reason they use eggs for this is that egg cells (“oocytes”, to use the stuffy term) are huge, and have all this neato-keen internal machinery set up to help them divide into a blastocyst and create stem cells. Non-egg cells can’t do such things. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/24 "2001-11-27T18:19:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > **Where you get into really dicey territory is when you want to talk about cloning to create humanoids that are devoid of any full consciousness or personality (no forebrain). Easily trained like dogs, these humanoid “robots” could be used to perform all sorts of dangerous or fatal tasks (like cleaning up the Chernobyl core) and be considered disposable. Likewise, a breed of combat specialized humanoids would also be a likely offshoot from such efforts. The ethicality of this sort of work is extremely dubious and will pose some of the most difficult decisions that the human race will face in the future.** So which studios are you pitching this to? Spielberg will love it. I’d suggest you call it “Attack of the Clones,” but I hear that one’s taken. _My two cents:_ Tempest in a teapot. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/25 "2001-11-27T18:43:20Z")
Sounds to me a little like ‘A Brave New World’. Humanoid clone drones. Definitely not Alpha batch materials I would assume. I will play for a while-\> Taking the notion of grown human beings, cloned humans will still take 18 years to reach full maturity. On that token, the movie Soldier with Kurt Russell where he and some other kids were programed from youth to be perfect fighting machines yet they still remained human. This I do not believe will be in our interests for a few hundred years. We will have to shave off a lot of our current morals to get that low. _shudders_ I would hate to see the day where humans are grown for specific purposes other than just posessing free will to do what they want. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/26 "2001-11-27T19:30:30Z")
**Phlosphr** , _we_ don’t have to stoop to that level. Just a few individuals with the technology need to. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/27 "2001-11-27T21:27:36Z")
Very true **Eris** _we_ do not need to stoop to that level. And most unfortunately, scientists for the **Good of science** will most surly stoop that low. A quick aside: I believe it is ignorant of some to think that somewhere, right now, there is not a group working on cloning the first human. That is if it has not already been done. This in itself is quite scary. What do we as humans want to gain from cloning a human being. Do we really want to create a Super Race!? If one day a few presidential administrations from now, a president thinks it would be a good idea to start a full fledged Governmental program for cloning. What could they possibly want to create from that?..Now years after that we have ‘clones’ walking around looking and acting just like the elderly scientist who donated his own genes for the project. What then? I wonder what will happen when clones start to breed? Will they be able to breed? A new race is spawning, or will it just be a mirror image of what we are and how we act? Who knows no knows. Maybe at age ten a clone’s head will implode from sensory overload…hahahaha…I wonder about the future. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/28 "2001-11-27T22:30:43Z")
Ironically, the current hoopla has started because the guys at Advanced Cell Technology, Inc announced their “breakthrough” prematurely (presumably to get some free advertising for future capitalization requests). The cell they manipulated died at the third division and generally the raw “egg” material is good for three divisions without any outside prompting. So, basically, they swapped around some genetic material and turned it loose to die at exactly the point where it would have died if they had not swapped the material. I’m not suggesting that this thread has no merit, but the cries of horror from the President and some members of Congress are as premature as the press release that started the furor. ---
**Author:** ![jonfromdenver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/82dd89/32.png) [@jonfromdenver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jonfromdenver)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/29 "2001-11-27T22:51:23Z")
Essential to this thread is an understanding of what the cloning procedure encompasses: > [@](#): > > • Somatic Cell Nuclear Transfer: In this technique, commonly designated “Human Therapeutic Cloning” a patient’s body cell is combined with an egg cell that has its DNA removed. As a result the body cell’s DNA is reprogrammed back to an embryonic state, and totipotent stem cells are produced identical to the patient. > > • Parthenogenesis: In this technique a woman’s oocyte is directly activated without the removal of its DNA to begin development on its own, forming a preimplantation embryo from which totipotent stem cells are isolated. > > • Ooplasmic Transfer: In the reverse of nuclear transfer, ooplasmic transfer involves the removal of the cytoplasm of an oocyte and transferring it into the body cell of a patient thereby transforming the patient’s cell into a primitive stem cell. [Advanced Cell Technology](http://www.advancedcell.com/ht-program.html) To me, it’s really not all that new and debatable. It’s _in vitro_ without sperm, and that’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![Solomon7t](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Solomon7t](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Solomon7t)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/30 "2001-11-28T08:09:15Z")
Everyone is going WAY overboard with this whole issue. Just because we have cloned embryos does **not** mean we can simply grow them into humans. The odds of succeeding would be about 1 in a 1000 to get a organism resembling a modern human. As for religions fanatics saying that cloning embryos is immoral, its their choice not to partake in these activitys. If “God” doesnt want us cloning embryos then he can punish us himself. It is not mans place to judge, or so I hear. ---
**Author:** ![Genseric](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Genseric](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genseric)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/31 "2001-11-28T08:34:03Z")
I’m just thinking how science fiction has inspired mankind in some of our greatest achievements, exploring space, and what not. Is this possibly an issue where science fiction has “shot itself in the foot” so to speak? Every criticism of cloning I’ve heard is conjuring up some 1950’s sci-fi claptrap scenario, that bears virtually no relation to what is actually going on. Worth pondering, I think. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/32 "2001-11-29T01:19:05Z")
jonfromdenver quoted ACT’s stuff: > [@](#): > > • Parthenogenesis: In this technique a woman’s oocyte is directly activated without the removal of its DNA to begin development on its own, forming a preimplantation embryo from which totipotent stem cells are isolated. Hmmm … I’d heard that oocytes are supposed to have a full set of DNA when they’re unfertilized, and only discard half their DNA (and thus become haploid) when a sperm cell actually reaches them. However, this oocyte DNA is not **identical** to the DNA in the rest of the woman’s cells. It has undergone the first stage(s) of meiosis, which means that several of the genes have swapped places on the chromosome-pairs they inhabit. (They’re still at the same locus, they’re just on the opposite chromosome now.) So using an unfertilized oocyte’s intact DNA isn’t “true” cloning. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/33 "2001-11-29T03:03:08Z")
Web MD has the basics on cloning for those interested in learning more: [http://www.webmd.com](http://www.webmd.com) ---
**Author:** ![forceps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/839c29/32.png) [@forceps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/forceps)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/34 "2003-03-11T02:58:45Z")
personaly i do not like defending cloning on the base of human health… this is plain anthropocentrism, egotism of race… i understand very well, that in society whoes primary goal is to preserve its citizens on the account of everything else is hard to express true words of defense for researchers… btw, researchers often do not need more than nice quite place in society… 100 years ago they would be trying defend cloning willy nilly on the base of god… ---
**Author:** ![rexnervous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@rexnervous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rexnervous)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/35 "2003-03-11T03:02:15Z")
Holy crap. Talk about resurrecting a thread from the dead. Does this thread win ‘longest time between posts’ award? Sorry, nothing to add to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/36 "2003-03-11T05:52:06Z")
we have newer cooler cloning threads that take into account recent happenings. But **forceps** may not have been on the boards since he posted here last. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Harmonix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonix)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/37 "2003-03-11T06:16:53Z")
holy shit old thread. > [@](#): > > Hmmm … I’d heard that oocytes are supposed to have a full set of DNA when they’re unfertilized, and only discard half their DNA (and thus become haploid) when a sperm cell actually reaches them. However, this oocyte DNA is not identical to the DNA in the rest of the woman’s cells. It has undergone the first stage(s) of meiosis, which means that several of the genes have swapped places on the chromosome-pairs they inhabit. (They’re still at the same locus, they’re just on the opposite chromosome now.) > > So using an unfertilized oocyte’s intact DNA isn’t “true” cloning As I understand it ALL of a woman’s egg cells under go meiosis one Prior to birth. At that point all the cells are haploid chromosomally, but each chromosome still consists of 2 chromatids. Just before ovulation the eggs mature and complete the process of mieosis. ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/38 "2003-03-11T12:29:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Genseric \* > \*\*I’m just thinking how science fiction has inspired mankind in some of our greatest achievements, exploring space, and what not. Is this possibly an issue where science fiction has “shot itself in the foot” so to speak? Every criticism of cloning I’ve heard is conjuring up some 1950’s sci-fi claptrap scenario, that bears virtually no relation to what is actually going on. Worth pondering, I think. \*\* This is very true. One of my major pet peeves about sci-fi is how in almost every example of cloning has the clone retaining the memories and personality of the donor and gowing into an adult in 5 minutes. When the sci-fi writers learned that this isn’t how it would turn out they dreamed up “quick maturation chambers” and “mental programming installed by computers” to get around it so they could still do the cheesy “evil twin” stories. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166/39 "2003-03-12T00:23:54Z")
Cloning is a fairly useless bit of biotechnology that gives someone an identical twin that they didn’t have before, and this twin is perhaps two or three decades younger than the older twin. No memories or experiences are transferred. The genetic material is older, with shorter telomeres, and so is less viable. If the telomere shortening (and other aging effects if any) can be fixed(which must be possible, as it happens during meiosis) the clone will be a viable human. independent individual. But there is no great advantage to having an additional twin, as it won’t share any of the original’s experiences. And fixing the telomere problem would no doubt benefit the original as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-cloning-thread-reality/95166.md?page=1)