# Human evolution from apes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [November 7, 2017, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942 "2017-11-07T03:28:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/21 "2017-11-07T15:50:44Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The key take-away though wrt your OP is that we didn’t evolve from apes. If you can grasp that part then you will be further along in understanding evolution. :smack: That should be 'we didn’t evolve from the apes that exist today. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > The simplest rebuttal I’ve heard to the OP’s question is “Well, Americans descended from Europeans. Why are there still Europeans?” Not totally accurate but it’s a good rebuttal and pretty easy to understand in the context of the original question. I’ll have to remember this one. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/22 "2017-11-07T16:00:04Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > If you want to get pedantic, human beings are apes. And consequently, contrary to the comment just after yours, so is the common ancestor of us and all other apes. No, we didn’t evolve from any _modern_ apes, but the _first_ ape was the most recent common ancestor of all modern apes, including humans. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/23 "2017-11-07T16:05:40Z")
Evolution as a concept is one that has been debased and confused in the popular imagination so much that it isn’t surprising that there are recurring questions like this. I think much of the lack of understanding comes from our basic belief that we are the intended pinnacle of life of earth, instead of a species among other species, all being products of millions of random events. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/24 "2017-11-07T16:14:44Z")
What’s the oldest unchanged species? I thought it was cockroaches, but on examination, the issue is somewhat more nuanced than I expected. Is there an example of an extant species with a distinct offshoot, i.e. an ancestral “ape” that still exists? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/25 "2017-11-07T17:06:54Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > No, the thinking is that humans and apes have a common ancester. Anyone who thinks humans evolved from apes is kinda dumb. Nitpick. Some say humans _are_ apes. (I descend from an ape – my grandfather!) Wikipedia shows this phylogeny: Superfamily Hominoidea (Apes) Family Hominidae (Great Apes) Subfamily Homininae (Gorilla and Hominini) If Homo isn’t Ape, it’s the only genus in Hominini, Homininae, Hominidae, or Hominoidea which isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![somepumpkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@somepumpkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somepumpkin)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/26 "2017-11-07T17:42:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The simplest counter to the OP question that I remember was: > > “There are still monkeys (and gorillas, orangutans, bonobos, etc) because there was and there is still work to do among the trees.” > > Of course, one does wonder now if thanks to the shrinking habitats and poaching if the ones asking that question will not have to ask it anymore in the future. > ☹ Very poignant, indeed. Your post reminded me of one of my favorite quotes: _“What a thousand acres of Silphiums looked like when they tickled the bellies of the buffalo is a question never again to be answered, and perhaps not even asked.”_ -Aldo Leopold ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/27 "2017-11-07T18:51:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Bryan Ekers** : > > What’s the oldest unchanged species? How do you define “unchanged”? Still exactly identical to their ancestors? I’m not even identical to my parents, much less to any of my ancestors in the umpteen generations before them. Close enough that they still look mostly alike? How alike is “mostly”, and are you sure there aren’t any non-obvious but important differences you’re missing? Close enough that they could interbreed if brought into contact with each other? The only way to learn that is to bring them into contact, and I left my time machine in the pocket of my other pants. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/28 "2017-11-07T19:00:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If we weren’t, I’d be curious when we stopped being so. > > I’m incidentally reminded of a line Frank Gorshin delivers in an original-series _Star Trek_ episode about human evolution. It strikes just the right tone of sneering contempt without being specific enough to give clear offense. > > The simplest rebuttal I’ve heard to the OP’s question is “Well, Americans descended from Europeans. Why are there still Europeans?” Not to hijack the thread, but what did Gorshin say? I’m familiar with the episode, but haven’t seen it in quite a while. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/29 "2017-11-07T19:07:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How do you define “unchanged”? Still exactly identical to their ancestors? I’m not even identical to my parents, much less to any of my ancestors in the umpteen generations before them. Close enough that they still look mostly alike? How alike is “mostly”, and are you sure there aren’t any non-obvious but important differences you’re missing? Close enough that they could interbreed if brought into contact with each other? The only way to learn that is to bring them into contact, and I left my time machine in the pocket of my other pants. I’d go with the last one. The ability to breed and produce fertile offspring is the central hallmark of a species. So if an individual animal from today would be able to produce such offspring with an individual animal from a hundred million years ago, I’d say they both belong to a single unchanged species. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/30 "2017-11-07T19:59:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’d go with the last one. The ability to breed and produce fertile offspring is the central hallmark of a species. So if an individual animal from today would be able to produce such offspring with an individual animal from a hundred million years ago, I’d say they both belong to a single unchanged species. The answer will probably turn out to be the horseshoe crab. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/31 "2017-11-07T20:25:32Z")
The horseshoe crab might be a reasonable guess, but without that time machine, a guess is all we can do. Maybe there’s some subtle biochemical difference between the horseshoe crabs of today and those of a mere few thousand years ago that would prevent them from interbreeding: How would we know? ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/32 "2017-11-08T01:27:30Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > If I had to guess its because those questions don’t seem sincere. Frequently they are posed as snarky "gotcha"s to people who have a religious agenda. > > I’m not accusing the OP of it, just pointing out it happens. I can think of much better ways to ask about evolution. Nope, no religious agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/33 "2017-11-08T01:37:14Z")
Heck, I remember a\* B.C. \*cartoon (after Johnny Hart got all religious and junk, presumably) that has one character ask another the “why are there still apes?” zinger, as though it made any sense. The character being asked, of course, had no reply. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/34 "2017-11-08T02:13:40Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > Nope, no religious agenda. Was the answer satisfactory, or do you still have questions? I’ll use this metaphor for my answer – a baker has three children; two remain bakers and inherit their father’s bakery, but one moves to another town and becomes a blacksmith. That a baker became a blacksmith does not mean that there are no more bakers, or no more niches for bakers to be successful. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/35 "2017-11-08T02:32:03Z")
> [@XT](#): > > :smack: That should be 'we didn’t evolve from the apes that exist today. > > Not totally accurate but it’s a good rebuttal and pretty easy to understand in the context of the original question. I’ll have to remember this one. 🙂 I like the one about “Why are there still Jews?” Because Christianity really evolved from Hellenism, ya dufuses. Which is gone. Oh, fine, maybe a coupla not-so-nice Jewish boys met up with some Greek women, kinda like when the Cro-Magnons met up with the Neanderthals, and produced a new hybrid. But there were a whole lot more Hellenists then Jews, and the Jews were men, making the offspring, none of them, Jews. No wonder their religion was such a mishmosh. The whole mishmoshpocha. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/36 "2017-11-08T13:46:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Heck, I remember a\* B.C. \*cartoon (after Johnny Hart got all religious and junk, presumably) that has one character ask another the “why are there still apes?” zinger, as though it made any sense. The character being asked, of course, had no reply. Yeah, it is one of the [most tired](https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/1275cbCOMIC-chagrin-falls-16-science.jpg) [Christian zingers](https://www.google.com/search?biw=864&bih=423&ei=AwoDWveEHuuc0gKRt4GQAg&q=%22why+are+there+still+apes%22) [out there](https://www.google.com/search?q=%22why+are+there+still+monkeys%22)–right up there with “I believe in the Big Bang theory–God said “bang” and it happened.” ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/37 "2017-11-15T08:18:32Z")
Humans descended from single-cell protozoans. So why are there still single-cell protozoans? \*Now, man came from monkey, Some folk say. But the Good Book, brother, Don’t tell it that way. If you believe that monkey-tale, Like some folk do, I’d rather be That monkey than you.\*[indent]— Tennessee Ernie Ford[/indent] ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/38 "2017-11-15T09:56:26Z")
Love the idea of this being a zinger for the scientific community. So the first time you show a chimp to a paleoanthropologist they drop their coffee cup which smashes on the floor and exclaim: “My God, a living fossil! No, wait, that’s not it. We…we…have been wrong all along. Apes are still here!” ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/39 "2017-11-15T18:16:31Z")
To be fair, the concept of one species replacing another is a common trope in early evolution ‘bedtime stories’ and ‘just-stories’. The story of horse evolution is often depicted this way, not to mention the iconic picture of human evolution, _The March of Progress_: > **[March of Progress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_of_Progress)** > > The March of Progress, originally titled The Road to Homo Sapiens, is an illustration that presents 25 million years of human evolution. It was created for the Early Man volume of the Life Nature Library, published in 1965, and drawn by the artist Rudolph Zallinger. > It has been viewed as a picture of the discredited theory, orthogenesis, that evolution is progressive. As such, it has been widely parodied and imitated to create images of progress of other kinds. > The picture of progress in evol... This is basically the Hollywood and the cartooniverse depiction of evolution, as well. For your amusement and edification, I submit: > **[A Clockwork Origin](https://futurama.fandom.com/wiki/A_Clockwork_Origin)** > > "I don't want to live on this planet anymore." ―-Professor Farnsworth "A Clockwork Origin" is the 9th. episode of the sixth season of Futurama. After being interrupted by Cubert, Professor Farnsworth asks why he isn't at school. Cubert responds by... ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942/40 "2017-11-15T19:09:08Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I believe the theory is that apes and humans evolved from a common ancestor. In other words our ancestors, evolutionarily speaking, hit a fork in the road, splitting off to become apes down one road and humans down the other. The common ancestor was almost certainly much more like an ape than like a human. In other words the branching relationship would look like a straight branch with one side branch suddenly splitting off. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-evolution-from-apes/800942.md?page=3)