# Human Modification (Chose your own appearance) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 11, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887 "2011-09-11T00:41:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/1 "2011-09-11T00:41:21Z")
Can’t really think of an appropriate title…anyway, inspired by this thread: > **[Genetically modify prehistoric humanity](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=622998)** > > Some benevolent aliens decide to genetically modify every human alive in 8000BC. \*\*What modifications would be most useful and most likely to survive to the present day? \*\*, you can pick more than one. Be warned, such modifications carry the... It’s a fairly common theme in science-fiction _(Iain Banks, Charles Stross, John Varley to name a few)_ that in the future due to technological progress people will have complete control over their own bodies to the extent that they can look exactly how they want to look. Based on this premise I was wondering how such technology would affect contemporary society. By means of plot _(for example a technological revolution, a gift from alien visitors etc)_ humanity has gained access to this technology. A couple of ground rules _(to keep things from going to far off track)_, the technology is available to everyone _(in industrial societies initially)_ at the equivalent cost of a mid-range new car _(ie its affordable but not cheap)_, the technology is difficult to regulate, even if it was banned outright it would still be accessible if you were determined. The technology enables you to quickly and painlessly change your appearance to exactly what you desire, you can go for an idealised version of your own body, copy the appearance of another person, change gender and if that sounds boringly mundane you can take on the form of any animal or combination thereof _(furries rejoice)_ whether real of imaginary. Basically if its biologically viable and a human mind can function in it you can have it. What effect would this have on society? I imagine that legislation would be brought in that modifications can only be done to adults and with express consent. Also that ‘dangerous’ mods would have to be licensed and registered. Would the military experiment with such dangerous and powerful mods? Would ‘body artists’ appear using the human form as a template, instead of designer dresses would famous ‘artistes’ design and sell certain bodies for a high price? Would they be considered as ‘copyrighted’, would celebrities be able to sue people who copy their appearance? What about security issues if anyone can look like anyone else? How would sporting events take place, people wouldn’t be operating on a basically even basis any more. How would standards of beauty change if everyone could be exactly as attractive as they want to be? How many people would be content to settle for an idealised version of their own body or how many would decide to go for something more exotic and unique? Would gender issues disappear if people could chose to be male or female? Would new forms of prejudice appear? _(see above re furries or would it become nothing particularly out of the ordinary?)_ The issue of age is another matter, if people could reset their bodies to whatever age they desire that brings a whole other set of problems into the issue. What would _you_ want to look like? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/2 "2011-09-11T00:54:59Z")
My immediate thought: > [@Disposable Hero](#): > > A couple of ground rules _(to keep things from going to far off track)_, the technology is available to everyone _(in industrial societies initially)_ at the equivalent cost of a mid-range new car _(ie its affordable but not cheap)_, the technology is difficult to regulate, even if it was banned outright it would still be accessible if you were determined. There’s even greater contempt and hatred for the poor and the people of poor nations, since everyone else looks far better than they do. In a generation or so they are regarded as Orcs, basically; a hideous subhuman horde. Even more so than they are now. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/3 "2011-09-11T01:57:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > My immediate thought: > > There’s even greater contempt and hatred for the poor and the people of poor nations, since everyone else looks far better than they do. In a generation or so they are regarded as Orcs, basically; a hideous subhuman horde. Even more so than they are now. Geez, went right for the depressing thoughts, didn’t you? :dubious: Making yourself look like someone else without their permission would quickly be made a capital crime (though pretty hard to get away with unless you killed the person). Me, just give me the option to go on all fours like an ape, prehensile feet, and some apelike physical gifts and I’d be happy. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/4 "2011-09-11T02:15:09Z")
People with particularly good-looking bodies and faces will license their likeness out. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/5 "2011-09-11T06:10:11Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Geez, went right for the depressing thoughts, didn’t you? :dubious: We live in a depressing world. However, I will bring up something less depressing and more amusing; the thought of how racists will react when race becomes even more irrelevant. Where do chrome or purple people fit into racist mythology? ---
**Author:** ![Sudden\_Kestrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Sudden\_Kestrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sudden_Kestrel)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/6 "2011-09-11T06:51:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We live in a depressing world. > > However, I will bring up something less depressing and more amusing; the thought of how racists will react when race becomes even more irrelevant. Where do chrome or purple people fit into racist mythology? Even better, transparent people! Nothing like showing we’re all the same under the hide, eh? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/7 "2011-09-11T14:34:40Z")
I recall a Gaiman short story that focuses on (especially) the sex-change aspects of tech like this. Ended with everyone being kind of homogeneously, androgynously beautiful. I think it would very much depend on whether changes were self-willed or not, and continuous or not. By this I mean, does a one-off “affordable” visit _turn me_ into a shapechanger, or am I going to have to visit a clinic (and shell out money) for every little change I want to make? Because that’s two very different scenarios. There (at first) would be a certain cachet to being _naturally_ beautiful vs augmented, especially in entertainment circles, but I don’t think it would last. Eventually the baseline human norm would be raised as the tech trickled down and cheapened. And I don’t think it’ll affect sports so much, like the way there are whole racecar leagues dedicated to using identical cars for all the drivers. I’d _hope_ gender discrimination would drop, but you only have to look at SD transgender threads to know that won’t happen, and is likely to get worse before it gets better- just a rumour that your current partner is not their “natural” gender would have a similar effect as it might today, and be more believable, in this future. That doesn’t bode well for queer acceptance. Never mind the furries. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/8 "2011-09-11T15:30:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > My immediate thought: > > There’s even greater contempt and hatred for the poor and the people of poor nations, since everyone else looks far better than they do. In a generation or so they are regarded as Orcs, basically; a hideous subhuman horde. Even more so than they are now. I wasn’t sure to put that restriction in or not but decided to have some limit on the modification technology so that for extensive modifications it is moderately expensive for someone in ‘western’ society, ie not something you can do just on a whim but achievable within the average pay-range. Of course you can go for back-alley blackmarket mods for a lot cheaper, but you pay your money and you take your chances! I had laser eye-surgery done a few years ago, I paid a premium to get a surgeon with a good track-record but your eyesight isn’t something you want to risk, I imagine modification technology would be the same. To narrow the hypothetical down a bit the ‘price of a new car’ thing would be for extensive full-body modifications, if you just want something like a new nose or an extra thumb on each hand it would be a lot cheaper. Legal modification technology would be a matter of walking into a Change Clinic and specifying what you want, for dangerous, illegal or cheap mods you would go to a black-market clinic and take your chances. Another thought, would this result in something of an arms-race between the criminal and the law-enforcement community, in a parrallel to the gun-control argument if criminals have dangerous and exotic mods would cops also have to get them to be able to deal with them? > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Making yourself look like someone else without their permission would quickly be made a capital crime (though pretty hard to get away with unless you killed the person). Me, just give me the option to go on all fours like an ape, prehensile feet, and some apelike physical gifts and I’d be happy. It would bring a whole new meaning to the term ‘identity theft’ wouldn’t it? Interesting ideas for your modifications btw I can envisage prehensile feet being an advantage in quite a few occupations. And how about a bouncer who was _really_ a gorilla. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I recall a Gaiman short story that focuses on (especially) the sex-change aspects of tech like this. Ended with everyone being kind of homogeneously, androgynously beautiful. > > I think it would very much depend on whether changes were self-willed or not, and continuous or not. By this I mean, does a one-off “affordable” visit turn me into a shapechanger, or am I going to have to visit a clinic (and shell out money) for every little change I want to make? Because that’s two very different scenarios. I think I read the same story. I believe in the story it was an accidently discovered drug that enabled people to quickly and easily change sex _(and if I recall correctly merely activated a latent ability that was always present in humanity but for some reason was never naturally active)_. One of the interesting aspects was the reaction of the worlds religions, in the case of Christianity most major denominations came out against it on the basis that it was interfering with the biblical statement, ‘male and female he created them’ while Catholicism considered using the drug as a sin because a pregnant female using it would reabsorb the fetus into her _(now his!)_ body. Personally I would see how someone doing that could be considered a sin along the lines of abortion _(not to get into that argument)_ but not merely changing gender in itself. The reaction of the religions of the world to more wide-ranging modification technology as depicted in the OP would be interesting as well. I think that in the first few months and years after the introduction of modification technology society would experience a massive overhaul and there would be a lot of moral, ethical and legal questions raised but eventually things would settle down so modification would be just another part of life, such as buying a new car. Most people would probably remain fairly human normal looking with subsections of society going for specific ‘looks’ or abilities, and of course the occassional person with the way-the-hell out there modification for the attention or the cool-factor. For myself I’d probably remain relatively mundane and baseline human but I’d probably have a go at changing sex just out of curiosity…oh and I’d get a tail, I think humanity was seriously shortchanged by being one of the few mammals without one. 😃 _(until I get it caught in the car-door, would probably be distinctly less amusing after that!)_ > [@MrDibble](#): > > I think it would very much depend on whether changes were self-willed or not, and continuous or not. By this I mean, does a one-off “affordable” visit turn me into a shapechanger, or am I going to have to visit a clinic (and shell out money) for every little change I want to make? Because that’s two very different scenarios. I envisaged it as the latter, the establishment of Change Clinics functioning something as something of a cross between a hairdressers and a plastic surgeon. You go in and order what modification you want, the more extensive the more expensive it would be. Legal clinics are regulated, blackmarket clinics…aren’t. > [@MrDibble](#): > > There (at first) would be a certain cachet to being naturally beautiful vs augmented, especially in entertainment circles, but I don’t think it would last. Eventually the baseline human norm would be raised as the tech trickled down and cheapened. And I don’t think it’ll affect sports so much, like the way there are whole racecar leagues dedicated to using identical cars for all the drivers. Perhaps there would be a certain perverse cachet in a person looking traditionally unattractive if the vast majority of people are traditionally beautiful, perhaps standards of beauty themselves would change or people would have more strange and exotic modifications in an effort to stand out from the crowd. As for sports perhaps there would be competitions for unmodified people and competitions for modified people, for example swimmers could go for all sorts of changes in order to aid their competitiveness. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I’d hope gender discrimination would drop, but you only have to look at SD transgender threads to know that won’t happen, and is likely to get worse before it gets better- just a rumour that your current partner is not their “natural” gender would have a similar effect as it might today, and be more believable, in this future. That doesn’t bode well for queer acceptance. Never mind the furries. Personally I think it would be surprising how many people would try out a sex-change if it was _(fairly)_ easily achievable and reversible. Like everything else the first few pioneers would be looked at askance but I can envisage it catching on fairly rapidly and in a few years someone remaining the same gender their entire lives would be the one considered weird _(the main character in Iain M Banks story Player of Games was considered distinctly odd for this reason)_ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/9 "2011-09-11T16:21:13Z")
John Varley, as you noted, dealt with some of these issues. In his universe, physical appearance has become a fashion issue. There are appearance designers and some looks are “in”. Other people just ignore the fashions and go with what they like, which is the same way many people treat clothing fashions now. Athletes’ bodies would be treated like any other sports equipment. There would be rules specifically defining what kind of body you were allowed to compete in. Personally, I think that if physical attractiveness could be easily purchased it would lose much of its value. It’s like good health - people use to consider somebody’s health as a factor when choosing a mate but now we essentially take good health for granted and ignore it. With appearance changes being common, we’d simply expect people to be good looking and we’d seek other factors in choosing mates. Having a nice personality might really mean something. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/10 "2011-09-11T16:22:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We live in a depressing world. Have you ever considered maybe you just have a depressed outlook on the world? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/11 "2011-09-11T16:41:56Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > I envisaged it as the latter, the establishment of Change Clinics functioning something as something of a cross between a hairdressers and a plastic surgeon. You go in and order what modification you want, the more extensive the more expensive it would be. Legal clinics are regulated, blackmarket clinics…aren’t. Then I see it as being only an extension of the current state of plastic surgery/Lasik/dentistry/sex reassignment/body modification - not as Earth-shattering as all that. Many people have better things to do with their money, and you’ve priced it out of the reach of lots of the world, where a car is more money than they’d see in their lifetime. I know I’ve no interest in getting anything done more than once (so, just a basic physical improvement package, “me-only-better”-type deal). I prefer the Culture model of being able to change one’s physiology oneself, given sufficient time. But visiting a Clinic every time? No thanks. I imagine it’d be one more thing for dissatisfied radicals to get all het up about. Now “The West” will be even more decadent - changing sex and bodies at a whim? If he weren’t dead, ObL would have a woody just at the thought. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/12 "2011-09-11T21:31:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > John Varley, as you noted, dealt with some of these issues. In his universe, physical appearance has become a fashion issue. There are appearance designers and some looks are “in”. Other people just ignore the fashions and go with what they like, which is the same way many people treat clothing fashions now. I haven’t actually read any Varley books yet, although I have ‘Steel Beach’ sitting on my bookshelf. I recalled another book with a similar plot-point, ‘Babel-17’ by Samuel R. Delaney. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Athletes’ bodies would be treated like any other sports equipment. There would be rules specifically defining what kind of body you were allowed to compete in. A new spin could be put on things whereby every athelete is given an identical body to start with and the winner is the person who is the most skilled and/or trains the most effectively. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Personally, I think that if physical attractiveness could be easily purchased it would lose much of its value. It’s like good health - people use to consider somebody’s health as a factor when choosing a mate but now we essentially take good health for granted and ignore it. With appearance changes being common, we’d simply expect people to be good looking and we’d seek other factors in choosing mates. Having a nice personality might really mean something. On your last point, it would be nice wouldn’t it… > [@MrDibble](#): > > Then I see it as being only an extension of the current state of plastic surgery/Lasik/dentistry/sex reassignment/body modification - not as Earth-shattering as all that. Many people have better things to do with their money, and you’ve priced it out of the reach of lots of the world, where a car is more money than they’d see in their lifetime. Well I was trying to put some sort of limit on its availability, if it was effectively free and easily accessible then I imagine things would be pretty anarchic after its introduction! But feel free to expand on your own ideas, I’d be interested to read them. Though even pricing it at the level of laser eye-surgery or even advanced dentistry would still put it out of reach of most of the worlds population. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I know I’ve no interest in getting anything done more than once (so, just a basic physical improvement package, “me-only-better”-type deal). I prefer the Culture model of being able to change one’s physiology oneself, given sufficient time. But visiting a Clinic every time? No thanks. I like the Culture model myself but wasn’t that available to Culture-born citizens only? I don’t think Banks really depicted how the more extreme changes were actually carried out did he? Not sure about the whole approximately year to change sex thing though, it would be interesting to experience but more than a little awkward during the inbetween stages, think I’d prefer to be one or the other. But again if it was socially acceptable as in Culture society it wouldn’t be as weird. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I imagine it’d be one more thing for dissatisfied radicals to get all het up about. Now “The West” will be even more decadent - changing sex and bodies at a whim? If he weren’t dead, ObL would have a woody just at the thought. It’s likely there’d be groups opposed to the technology in the West as well, whether its passive rejection like the Amish or active resistance like those who bomb abortion clinics and so on. Also I imagine that for some being completely unmodified could be considered a badge of honour. They’d be the strange ones! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/13 "2011-09-11T22:09:30Z")
Charles Sheffield wrote the [Proteus trilogy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteus_in_the_Underworld), which involved fairly casual form change as a central factor. There were limits though; for example, some shapes are easier to reach (since all forms between your present one and the destination form need to be survivable) and are more stable\* than others. And all forms have a lifespan multiplier; how long they live compared to human standard. \*As in, some exotic forms are prone to things like their biochemistry or metabolism suddenly going unstable. And others need constant renewal in the change tanks. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/14 "2011-09-11T23:22:59Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > I haven’t actually read any Varley books yet, although I have ‘Steel Beach’ sitting on my bookshelf. I wouldn’t recommend starting Varley with _Steel Beach_. It’s an excellent novel but it’s sort of a culmination of his Eight Worlds universe. It’s not a sequel as such - in fact Varley has denied the series even exists - but he uses characters and situations from his earlier work. You’d be better off starting with his short story collections like _The Persistence of Vision_ or _The Barbie Murders_ (aka _Picnic on Nearside_). ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/15 "2011-09-12T00:00:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Charles Sheffield wrote the [Proteus trilogy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteus_in_the_Underworld), which involved fairly casual form change as a central factor. There were limits though; for example, some shapes are easier to reach (since all forms between your present one and the destination form need to be survivable) and are more stable\* than others. And all forms have a lifespan multiplier; how long they live compared to human standard. > > \*As in, some exotic forms are prone to things like their biochemistry or metabolism suddenly going unstable. And others need constant renewal in the change tanks. Thanks, ordered a couple of those books, they look interesting. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I wouldn’t recommend starting Varley with Steel Beach. It’s an excellent novel but it’s sort of a culmination of his Eight Worlds universe. It’s not a sequel as such - in fact Varley has denied the series even exists - but he uses characters and situations from his earlier work. You’d be better off starting with his short story collections like The Persistence of Vision or The Barbie Murders (aka Picnic on Nearside). Thanks, just checked my bookshelf and I have the latter of those two short story collections. btw also found another book when checking which I have but haven’t read yet, ‘The Nanotech Chronicles’ by Michael Flynn which sounds like it could be relevant to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/16 "2011-09-12T09:51:57Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Well I was trying to put some sort of limit on its availability, if it was effectively free and easily accessible then I imagine things would be pretty anarchic after its introduction! But feel free to expand on your own ideas, I’d be interested to read them. Well, just the very first things that came to mind - what is the effect on US immigration control, and ideological opposition to immigration, if \*all \*the Mexicans coming in are blonde and blue-eyed? And what are the legal implications of an acknowledged adult choosing to get the body of a pre-pubescent child for sex purposes (\*vide \*the recent disappeared lolicon thread - or not:smack:)? Opens up a whole can of worms, that does. > [@](#): > > Though even pricing it at the level of laser eye-surgery or even advanced dentistry would still put it out of reach of most of the worlds population. That was my point - these current technologies could also be very socially-transformative, but they aren’t pervasive by any means. Like, I don’t know the US stats, but I don’t know anyone with fake tits, and only two nosejob recipents that I’m aware of. Hell, I know one person who still has a harelip! As for teeth… > [@](#): > > I like the Culture model myself but wasn’t that available to Culture-born citizens only? As a general rule, but it was also offered to Culture “inductees” from less-advanced civs, IIRC. Remember that the Culture also has the ability to insert any mind into any body it wants to, so a 'primitive" could get a Culture-standard body too. > [@](#): > > I don’t think Banks really depicted how the more extreme changes were actually carried out did he? There was quite a bit in one book about a sort of mental self-model where one could visualise and initiate changes, that sort of thing. _Excession_, IIRC. I think the extra glands come into it, and also the nanotech implants. > [@](#): > > Not sure about the whole approximately year to change sex thing though, it would be interesting to experience but more than a little awkward during the inbetween stages, think I’d prefer to be one or the other. But again if it was socially acceptable as in Culture society it wouldn’t be as weird. It wasn’t even considered weird to choose to be neuter. > [@](#): > > It’s likely there’d be groups opposed to the technology in the West as well, whether its passive rejection like the Amish or active resistance like those who bomb abortion clinics and so on. Oh, given, I wasn’t meaning to restrict it to non-Western radicals, sorry. > [@](#): > > Also I imagine that for some being completely unmodified could be considered a badge of honour. They’d be the strange ones! Definitely. And most importantly - how would you prove it? ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/17 "2011-09-13T01:22:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, just the very first things that came to mind - what is the effect on US immigration control, and ideological opposition to immigration, if \*all \*the Mexicans coming in are blonde and blue-eyed? Would the Mexicans be changing themselves to be blue eyed and blonde haired to fit in with what they imagine is the American norm or ideal? _(I’m not American and all I know of the whole border issue is what little I’ve picked up from movies and other media)_ People might be reluctant to give up their visible genetic heritage and the standards of beauty vary markedly from different cultures and individuals in those cultures. Personally I’ve never seen the fascination with the whole blue-eyed blonde ideal, I certainly don’t find it _unattractive_ but I do find it kind of bland and uninteresting. On a sidenote for reporters or seasoned travellers the ability to look like one of the locals in any given society might be a practical application of the technology as well, easier to immerse yourself in a particular culture if you don’t obviously stand out. > [@MrDibble](#): > > And what are the legal implications of an acknowledged adult choosing to get the body of a pre-pubescent child for sex purposes (vide the recent disappeared lolicon thread - or not)? Opens up a whole can of worms, that does. The whole technology would create a massive cluster of legal and ethical issues as well as new kinds of crime, at least these days is someone is kidnapped the kidnapper can’t really change much about their appearance in order to hide them or gain power and control over them, not the case with blackmarket modification technology. I imagine sovereignty over a persons own body and appearance would be one of the fundemental rights enshrined in law. Could give the means for unusual and fitting punishments for imaginative judges… > [@MrDibble](#): > > That was my point - these current technologies could also be very socially-transformative, but they aren’t pervasive by any means. Like, I don’t know the US stats, but I don’t know anyone with fake tits, and only two nosejob recipents that I’m aware of. Hell, I know one person who still has a harelip! As for teeth… Not disagreeing with your basic point but I imagine that as it became more common increasing numbers of people would give it a try _(at least for minor cosmetic mods)_, its been my experience that in recent times tatoos seem to be making something of a comeback _(if they ever went away)_. Ironically for all my interest in this subject I have never had, and barring unexpected life-changes, never will have a tatoo. Its my impression that most people do get one at some point in their lives. Though as I said above I did save up for a long time to afford a quality laser-job on my eyes, but even that was more for practical work-related reasons than vanity. > [@MrDibble](#): > > As a general rule, but it was also offered to Culture “inductees” from less-advanced civs, IIRC. Remember that the Culture also has the ability to insert any mind into any body it wants to, so a 'primitive" could get a Culture-standard body too. > > There was quite a bit in one book about a sort of mental self-model where one could visualise and initiate changes, that sort of thing. Excession, IIRC. I think the extra glands come into it, and also the nanotech implants. Thanks, Excession was the first Banks book I read and that was a long time ago, I’ll have to check it out again. On a sidenote after reading Surface Detail I’ve found the Culture universe a markedly less attractive place to live in with the whole technological afterlife deal! > [@MrDibble](#): > > Definitely. And most importantly - how would you prove it? True. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/18 "2011-09-13T06:45:08Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > On a sidenote after reading Surface Detail I’ve found the Culture universe a markedly less attractive place to live in with the whole technological afterlife deal! Bear in mind that that’s not strictly a Culture phenomenon - I got the impression from _Surface Detail_ that the Culture considers that sort of hanging-on after death quite _passé_ and a little desperate. The Culture seems to mostly use the upload tech to avoid \*accidental \*death, not “natural” death, and there is generally such a thing as a (greatly extended, true) “natural” lifespan for Culture humans (again, just my impression) and then they just pass on. A personality “snapshot” would be saved and backed-up, I’m certain, but I don’t think a continuing afterlife, as such, was a popular choice. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-modification-chose-your-own-appearance/595887/19 "2011-09-13T07:00:51Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Would the Mexicans be changing themselves to be blue eyed and blonde haired to fit in with what they imagine is the American norm or ideal? No - they’d do it to move away from being identifiably Mexican, I meant. Doesn’t have to be WASP, I guess. Anything not marking them as immigrant would do. > [@](#): > > \*On a sidenote for reporters or seasoned travellers the ability to look like one of the locals in any given society might be a practical application of the technology as well, easier to immerse yourself in a particular culture if you don’t obviously stand out. I think you’d see a big upswing in semiosis - much more cant, argot and creole, badge and livery, much more emphasis on the performance of ritual to prove membership. The spread of sign-and-countersign, as visible body markers fail as a surety for identity. Think of the movie _The Thing_, and extrapolate that paranoia over imposters, over having the group _corpus_ violated by fundamentally unseeable doppelgangers. There’d be a general attitude of rejection of … taint, corruption, infection - and a drive to purity, sanctity, identity. Witch hunts and the “Red under the Bed” McCarthy era are also good analogies for how people might behave when there is the possibility of “spies” like your reporters. I think at the moment reporters stand out and that \*helps \*them. Not many people want \*completely \*embedded reporters, I think. Have you read _The City and The City_, by Miéville? It doesn’t deal with your hypothetical as such, but it does have a bit to say about the semiotics of group membership that has relevance.