# Human Rights Record of the United States **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 4, 2003, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365 "2003-04-04T02:24:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/21 "2003-04-04T10:51:16Z")
**Desmo** - The problem is, the original source says “100’s of businesses in the US make torture insturments (paraphrased for time)”. I am asking for a more specific source for this information, as it is vauge. Specifically, business names and products. I dont’ think it’ll be forthcoming, however. **Zoe** - My problem with these sorts of reports is that they tend to object to things like the Death Penalty, which is none of their business. They (apparently) make claims of innocent people in jail and such, without any sort of real statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/22 "2003-04-04T11:00:37Z")
Well, the _original_ source is the Amnesty International report “Stopping the Torture Trade” dated February 26, 2001. I don’t know what it says, I haven’t got a copy. You shouldn’t call for a “cite” when you already have it. Go and find a copy. If it doesn’t agree with what’s in the Chinese report, feel free to attack the Chinese report. ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/23 "2003-04-04T11:07:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Asylum \* > \*\* > > It makes no mention of the nations that did not vote for the U.S., including China and Cuba and numerous third world nations, many of which had political motivation to not want the U.S. on the committee. It doesn’t take into account that many of the nations practice vote swapping to get desired countries on the committee and the U.S. was considered a shoe-in to retain its seat and therefore not requiring any special backroom negotiations. > \*\* Actually, that is incorrect. Neither China nor Cuba had any part in the US being voted out of this commitee. They had no vote for or against the US to stay in there. Nations are voted on or off in blocks. The US is part of the ‘Western European and Others’ Group. The reason why the US was voted off was that more European countries were in the running, and the US, not having appointed a UN ambassador at the time, didn’t really bother to make sure it got enough votes. The consequence was that rather than a European country and the US being voted in, two European countries were voted in. ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/24 "2003-04-04T11:12:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tristan \* > \*\* > > **Zoe** - My problem with these sorts of reports is that they tend to object to things like the Death Penalty, which is none of their business. \*\* Um, sorry, but it’s you who are mistaken. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that ‘No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.’ and if the death penalty is deemed inhuman, then it is very much the business of others when assessing the human rights record. > [@](#): > > \*\* > They (apparently) make claims of innocent people in jail and such, without any sort of real statistics. \*\* There’s plenty of statistics on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/25 "2003-04-04T15:42:34Z")
Here’s an interesting article about [Human Rights in China…](http://www.tibet.org/sft/action/rinpoche_dhondup.html) ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/26 "2003-04-04T16:02:20Z")
And [here’s](http://www.tibet.com/WhitePaper/white5.html) an even better one. It references Amnesty International as well. Even the purported U.S. shortcomings pale before these accounts. Here’s one account: > [@](#): > > However, for three days from 5 March 1989 Lhasa was, once again, in turmoil, with demonstrators waving the Tibetan flag and shouting for independence. During the police crackdown, automatic weapons were fired even into some homes. Estimates of deaths varied from 80 to 400. The official Chinese figure was only 11. According to Tang Da-xian, a Chinese journalist who was in Lhasa at the time, some four hundred Tibetans were massacred, several thousand were injured and three thousand were imprisoned. [Events in Lhasa March 2nd-10th 1989, Tang Daxian, London, TIN, 15 June 1990] At midnight on 7 March 1989, martial law was formally imposed in Lhasa. And here’s another: > [@](#): > > In a sudden clampdown, starting in February 1992, groups of ten Chinese personnel raided Tibetan houses in Lhasa and arrested anyone found in possession of anything deemed subversive; these included photographs, and tapes or books containing speeches or teachings of the Dalai Lama. Over 200 were arrested. There is nothing like this happening in the U.S. (or in Canada, or Australia, or Britain, or any other European country as far as I know). Read the whole article. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/27 "2003-04-04T16:13:42Z")
> [@](#): > > In the United States, close to 100 companies manufacture and export considerable quantities of instruments of torture that are banned in international trade. They have set up sales networks overseas. In its February 26, 2001 report, Amnesty International said some 80 American companies were involved in the manufacture, marketing and export of instruments of torture, including electric- shock tools, shackles and handcuffs with saw-teeth. Is there any chance that they’re talking about companies that are selling a bit of fetish and bondage gear, rather than some huge company cranking out saw-toothed handcuffs by the truckload? ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/28 "2003-04-04T16:17:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > \*\*Sorry missed one **MLS**. You are implying that the Chinese government has a policy that is carried out throughout the country to abort female foetus’. That is one pretty nasty and insulting insinuation. > > Certainly individuals have and are aborting female foetus’, but that is completely different from being State sponsored. \*\* Well, perhaps I was wrong about the “female” discrimination, but if I can find a cite about that I will post it later. However, [this article](http://www.lifesite.net/interim/2001/sept/02china.html) published in September 2001 certainly seems to suggest there is a certain amount of coersion going on. > [@](#): > > In the wake of its being awarded the 2008 Olympic Games, China is ordering one of its remote, poverty-stricken regions to commit at least 20,000 abortions by the end of this year. > [@](#): > > as the Daily Telegraph (London) sardonically noted, [this] includes infanticide, forced late-trimester abortions and coercive sterilization of women. Recently, a woman died while trying to escape officials who were attempting to sterilize her against her wishes. The Chinese government’s Family Planning Association routinely forces abortions on women, sometimes in the eighth month of pregnancy, and a propaganda campaign has persuaded many young women to use abortion as a form of birth control. > [@](#): > > … Ann Noonan, policy director for the Laogai Research Foundation, says virtually all pregnancies before the end of the year in Huaiji, a region of China in the province of Guangdong (formerly Canton) with a population of one million, will have to end by abortion for the quota to be achieved. ---
**Author:** ![Joachim\_Pieper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Joachim\_Pieper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joachim_Pieper)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/29 "2003-04-04T16:24:38Z")
Suspected ‘terrorists’ are being arrested and held without trial in the UK, does that count? Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/30 "2003-04-04T16:25:19Z")
Here’s what I was looking for: [China Uses Abortion as Female Genocide](http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/2/14/202119.shtml) > [@](#): > > A Taiwan newspaper in December quoted the director of China’s state “family planning” commission as admitting that the policy has led to forced abortions, sex-selective abortions, as well as infanticide and the abandonment of newborn girls. > [@](#): > > Last August, Western newspapers reported a case in which “family planning” officials had killed an unauthorized baby in front of its parents. > > The Huang family already had three children when the mother fell pregnant again, according to the reports. Having botched an attempt to induce an abortion, “family planning” officials then ordered the father to kill the newborn baby, whom he instead tried to hide. Eventually they found the baby boy and drowned him in a rice paddy, in front of the parents. Maybe other forms of birth control could be used to deal with population increases? There do exist countries which have managed to reduce population increases and actually bring fertility to less than the replacement level without having to resort to these kinds of disgusting measures. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/31 "2003-04-04T16:56:52Z")
Sigh…the point of the article isn’t that the US is more evil than China, but that the US is hypocritical and ignores its own problems. Much of the response of this thread seems to be actively demonstrating this. The human rights record of China is relevant to the extent that we understand their motivation for attacking the US on this, but if you don’t attack the substance of the report, its simply a lame ad hominem. My point is that now we even have China pointing fingers at us. It is our foreign policy that has people up in arms right now. Our human rights record isn’t so shocking compared to some nations, but it is hardly is a moral highground from which we can lecture others and interfere with the sovereignty of other nations. Is our government really motivated by human rights or by advancing US “security interests”? Why do we have more people in prison than any other nation? Some geographical fluke? Is it a mere coincidence that most of these prisoners are black and our population is not? It wasn’t that long ago that blacks were regularly beaten, tortured, lynched, and systematically denied the right to vote. The laws have changed but the culture that perpuated that violence still persists. It was even more recent when massive riots erupted over the percieved judicial endorsement of police brutality against blacks. Have things gotten any better since then? ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/32 "2003-04-04T17:27:22Z")
the article breaks down the US violations into several categories, most of which don’t qualify as human rights violations, and almost all of which China has no business lecturing anyone about: > [@](#): > > I. Lack of Safeguard for Life, Freedom and Personal Safety This is defined as: -We have a fairly high crime rate -Guns are easily obtainable by the common person -Violence on TV/movies is common I agree that a high crime rate could be considered a human rights violation, the other two are not. While a four-year-old accidentally shooting an 18-month old is a tragedy, it is **not** a US human rights violation. > [@](#): > > II. Serious Rights Violations by Law Enforcement Departments -Several cases where there was no material evidence, only a confession -People wrongly imprisoned/on death row -High prison populations and overcrowding the first one may be an indicator for potential human rights violations, but by itself it means bubkus. “Alon Paterson” claimed his confession was coerced- so? Is there any other evidence that bolsters his claim? Overcrowding in prisons is a problem and is a HRV. High prison populations aren’t necessarily so- it depends on why they’re imprisoned. This is an area that China has [no business](http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engASA170082003!Open) [lecturing us](http://www.hrw.org/press98/dec/xu1221.htm) [about.](http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engASA170112003!Open) > [@](#): > > III. Plight of the Poor, Hungry and Homeless Yes, the US has hungry and homeless people but as the article points out that both groups receive the food they need. So where’s the violation of human rights? The rest of their examples are a poorly cloaked ad for communism. > [@](#): > > IV. Worrying Conditions for Women and Children -We don’t have an ERA. -We wanted the Japanese “comfort women” trial dismissed as it was an act of Japanese sovreignity- while they say it sums up “our attitude” it really has nothing to do with the US and human rights. -There’s a lot of violence against women (I thought the “1 woman is beaten every 15 seconds” thing had been debunked?) -We haven’t ratified the “convention on the rights of the child” (as opposed to China, who has, but has numerous violations of it) -There’s a lot of child abuse and missing children. I’ll admit I don’t know much about US statistics on this- are our rates (not numbers) similar to other countries? Are the Boston archdiocese cases really the “biggest scandal following Enron”? > [@](#): > > V. Deep-Rooted Racial Discrimination (according to them “the most serious human rights problem in the United States”) -“racial segregation is still practiced by virtually all schools in the city. (Cincinnati)” I’d like a cite, itherwise I call bullshit on this one. -“The true fact, however, is that few black people are able to join the police force…” Once again, [bullshit.](http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2002/US/05/22/levy.body/story.chief.jpg) -“None of the CEOs and presidents of the top 500 companies in the Unites States are blacks.” [Bullshit.](http://www.fortune.com/fortune/information/Presscenter/0,,07222002B,00.html) The US has plenty of work to do on race relations and equity, but to say that this is the most serious HRV in the US is pretty removed from reality. > [@](#): > > VI. Wantonly Infringing upon Human Rights of Other Countries -and one of their examples is… the spy plane incident where we were in international waters. The pilot “presumptiously” landed in China because the interceptor plane damaged the US plane to the point where he was forced to land. -The US has a lot of overseas bases. Hardly a HRV. -Soldiers overseas have committed crimes. And now they’re in jail, adding to our overcrowded prisons that they complained about. -We sell arms to other countries. Without specifics it’s hars to guage this ine, but I’ll point out that [China has done the same violating agreements we’ve had with them.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A27621-2001Aug31¬Found=true) -“Project Sunshine” from the 1950s. I’m not defending it, but how is it relevant to the state of human rights 50 years later? -Failure to sign Kyoto. This is NOT a human rights violation. -We walked out on the Third UN Conference Against Racism in Durban. And rightly so, IMHO. The Chinese gov’t’s attempt to link our rejection of anti-semitism to a human rights failure speaks volumes about their agenda and their true feelings about human righs. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/33 "2003-04-04T17:30:20Z")
I was doing so well typo-wise til the end. The one line should read "-We sell arms to other countries. Without specifics it’s har **d** to guage this **o** ne, but I’ll point out that China has done the same\*\*,\*\* violating agreements we’ve had with them. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/34 "2003-04-04T17:47:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mojo \* > the article breaks down the US violations into several categories, most of which don’t qualify as human rights violations, and almost all of which China has no business lecturing anyone about: The lecture wasn’t so much about human rights as a percieved hypocrisy, demonstrating that foreign policy was actually aimed at increasing hegemony. This angle could change some of your criticism a bit. Simply dismissing some points as not a human rights violation, doesn’t reflect their intent. Kudos for reading through the paper though, at least you have some idea what your dismissing. However, I think you singled out some of the least relevant points on race and the prison system to call bullshit on. I think your operating selectively there. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/35 "2003-04-04T17:52:21Z")
I agree that China most likely has worse human rights violations. What does that have to do with the important issue of acknowledging and doing something about the human rights violations in the U.S.? Joachim said: > [@](#): > > Suspected ‘terrorists’ are being arrested and held without trial in the UK, does that count? You betcha! The US has done the same thing. We hold them without charging them, deny them excess to attorneys and don’t bring them to trial. Why don’t all states allow DNA testing that might disprove the innocence of some prisoners? Just yesterday, a man was released after 19 (?) years in prison for a crime he did not commit after DNA tests proved him innocent. Let’s clean up our own backyard. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/36 "2003-04-04T18:46:57Z")
No one has suggested that we should ignore problems at home in order to focus on China’s human rights issues. Does the US have some bad history with regards to race relations, police brutality, priest/child molestations? We sure do, and it’s fairly unanimous that these are problems that need to be worked on (like your example of DNA testing- I believe that’s it’s slowly becoming the norm). Does that mean we should stay silent when China brutally supresses government dissidents? **No**. ---
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/37 "2003-04-04T20:24:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OliverH \* > \*\*Actually, that is incorrect. Neither China nor Cuba had any part in the US being voted out of this commitee. They had no vote for or against the US to stay in there. Nations are voted on or off in blocks. The US is part of the ‘Western European and Others’ Group. The reason why the US was voted off was that more European countries were in the running, and the US, not having appointed a UN ambassador at the time, didn’t really bother to make sure it got enough votes. The consequence was that rather than a European country and the US being voted in, two European countries were voted in. \*\* I’m aware that countries are voted on and off in blocks based roughly on geographic region, and I’m also aware that countries are not “voted off” survivor style, but to be specific are not voted for. Now how in the world does any of this have anything to do with whether or not China and/or Cuba played a role in the U.S. not being on the committee? There were three seats open from the West European and Other group, and four nations seeking to be elected (or retain their current seats) with the seats being given to the three countries with the highest votes, votes being cast by all member nations (not just those in a nation’s group). If China and Cuba did not vote for the U.S. to be on the committee how did they not play a role in the U.S. losing its seat? By definition all countries that did not vote for the U.S. played a role in its losing its seat. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/38 "2003-04-05T02:16:33Z")
_O, wad some power the giftie gie us To see ourselves as others see us!_ ---
**Author:** ![Dostromin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c0e974/32.png) [@Dostromin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostromin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/39 "2003-04-05T03:08:38Z")
Hey! Muckraker! We need to sweep this under the rug. The US has never done anything wrong. Big Brother is watching you I MEAN this war is protecting us. I wonder what the future holds. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365/40 "2003-04-05T05:41:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mojo \* > This is defined as: > -We have a fairly high crime rate > -Guns are easily obtainable by the common person > -Violence on TV/movies is common > > I agree that a high crime rate could be considered a human rights violation, the other two are not. While a four-year-old accidentally shooting an 18-month old is a tragedy, it is **not** a US human rights violation. If people are being killed, the U.S. government has an obligation to prevent the deaths. Widespread gun ownership clearly is a direct cause of a large number of deaths, and the government is failing to take the steps necessary to prevent these deaths. Therein lies the human rights violation. Allowing exposure to violent images is only a human rights violation is if causes violence. That question is still open to debate, so it’s not clear whether it constitutes a HR violation. > [@](#): > > -Several cases where there was no material evidence, only a confession > -People wrongly imprisoned/on death row > -High prison populations and overcrowding > > the first one may be an indicator for potential human rights violations, but by itself it means bubkus. “Alon Paterson” claimed his confession was coerced- so? Is there any other evidence that bolsters his claim? It sounds like they’re saying that people are being convicted with insufficient evidence, which would violate their right to a fair trial. > [@](#): > > Yes, the US has hungry and homeless people but as the article points out that both groups receive the food they need. So where’s the violation of human rights? The rest of their examples are a poorly cloaked ad for communism. The [Universal Declaration of Human Rights](http://www.un.org/rights/50/decla.htm) lists what are widely considered fundamental human rights. Take a look at Article 25. Poverty, hunger, homelessness, and lack of health care in the United States are serious human rights violations. I don’t see how the government could claim to be making a real effort to solve these problems. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-rights-record-of-the-united-states/166365.md?page=3)