# Human Sacrifice - Government-Sponsored **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 9, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425 "2014-06-09T18:22:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/21 "2014-06-10T13:48:01Z")
Very interesting question. I don’t have time to look at these cites, but wikipedia does have an article on [contemporary human sacrifice](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice#Contemporary_human_sacrifice). Some of these are obviously not state sponsored, but some might be, if we consider “the state” to be at the village level. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/22 "2014-06-10T13:58:59Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I think there is a rather fundamental difference. As has been said, the latter is not really a “sacrifice,” since the person killed is not seen to be of value. Yes; the word “sacrifice” means giving up or losing something that you really don’t want to lose (presumably in order to gain some greater benefit). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/23 "2014-06-10T14:04:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Very interesting question. I don’t have time to look at these cites, but wikipedia does have an article on [contemporary human sacrifice](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice#Contemporary_human_sacrifice). Some of these are obviously not state sponsored, but some might be, if we consider “the state” to be at the village level. The ones in the contemporary section do not appear to be state-sanctioned. The closest was an African rebel who goes by the name of “General Butt Naked”, who allegedly ate a child’s heart. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/24 "2014-06-10T14:06:36Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Yes; the word “sacrifice” means giving up or losing something that you really don’t want to lose (presumably in order to gain some greater benefit). Not necessarily, as criminals and war prisioners were sometimes used as human sacrifices, and presumably the killers did not value them overmuch - except perhaps as slaves. The difference seems to be the expectation of gaining something via religious mechanism by means of the ritual itself. ---
**Author:** ![busterpickle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@busterpickle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/busterpickle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/25 "2014-06-10T17:55:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The ones in the contemporary section do not appear to be state-sanctioned. The closest was an African rebel who goes by the name of “General Butt Naked”, who allegedly ate a child’s heart. There is a Vice episode with him, he runs a church now. It was customary for them to all eat people. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/26 "2014-06-10T18:08:02Z")
In a fundementalist state, execution of a person violating religious laws may not be gaining the state any “favors” from its deity. However, the powers may view it as not gaining “dis-favors” from oG. Rotting in heck for not doing the religiously mandated ritual. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/27 "2014-06-10T19:23:50Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > When was the most recent government-sponsored human sacrifice carried out? The criteria: (1) must be by a state-level society - not a chiefdomship or tribe; (2) must be officially condoned; and (3) must be for religious purposes. > > Most recent I have heard of was the sacrifice of two Cambodian POWs in 1870 to Me Sa (basically, Durga) in 1877. No doubt there are more recent ones … any candidates? I have no idea when, for example, the “annual customs of Dahomey” ended. > > Thread inspired by a cite found in David Chandler’s _History of Cambodia_, where he cites an earlier paper “Royally Sponsored Human Sacrifices in Ninteenth Century Cambodia: the Cult of Me Sa”, in _Facing the Cambodian Past_ Chandler’s paper can be found as PDF at [siamese-heritage.org](http://www.siamese-heritage.org/jsspdf/1971/JSS_062_2h_Chandler_RoyallySponsoredHumanSacrificesIn19thCenturyCambodia.pdf) It should be noted that Chandler’s source explicitly states that “only a man under sentence of death for a serious crime” was chosen for the sacrifice to Me Sa. The two men allegedly sacrificed around 1877 would likely have been executed as insurgents, having taken part in prince Siwotha’s rebellion against king Norodom. Also, one might question whether this case would qualify as officially condoned at state-level, as Cambodia at the time was a French protectorate. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/28 "2014-06-10T19:49:12Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > Chandler’s paper can be found as PDF at [siamese-heritage.org](http://www.siamese-heritage.org/jsspdf/1971/JSS_062_2h_Chandler_RoyallySponsoredHumanSacrificesIn19thCenturyCambodia.pdf) > > It should be noted that Chandler’s source explicitly states that “only a man under sentence of death for a serious crime” was chosen for the sacrifice to Me Sa. The two men allegedly sacrificed around 1877 would likely have been executed as insurgents, having taken part in prince Siwotha’s rebellion against king Norodom. > > Also, one might question whether this case would qualify as officially condoned at state-level, as Cambodia at the time was a French protectorate. Great find! If you read my posts above, in my opinion the identity of the sacrificed people makes no difference as to whether they were “sacrificed” - victims in many cultures were often criminals or POWs (here, arguably, as rebels they were both). A protectorate also really makes little difference - Cambodia still had a monarch who was, officially, head of state. A “protectorate” is generally defined as "a relationship between a strong state and a weaker state that the former ‘protects’ and partially controls’. It is not a status that necessarily denies the official state-hood of the weaker state - just defines the relations between them (though admittedly in practice there may be little difference between a protectorate and an outright colony in most areas, the main difference being that in a protectorate, the official head of state carries out or is in receipt of ceremonial functions … such as human sacrifice). As a side note - I would be amazed if this was, in fact, the most recent example. Surely there are others …? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/29 "2014-06-11T00:51:58Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Not necessarily, as criminals and war prisioners were sometimes used as human sacrifices, and presumably the killers did not value them overmuch - except perhaps as slaves. The difference seems to be the expectation of gaining something via religious mechanism by means of the ritual itself. Well, hold on. The mere fact that a human sacrifice is conducted according to a certain ritual doesn’t mean that those conducting it believe the efficacy of the sacrifice comes from the ritual. They may have the ritual in order to mark, celebrate and call attention to the sacrifice, but they may very well still believe that it’s the sacrifice which matters, not the associated ritual. (Compare, e.g., the coronation of a king in the European monarchical tradition. It’s fitting that the king be crowned, but the coronation doesn’t itself effect anything.) In other words, those who hope to gain something from the divinity by human sacrifice don’t necessarily hope that the gain accrues from “the ritual itself”. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/30 "2014-06-11T01:33:35Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > As a side note - I would be amazed if this was, in fact, the most recent example. Surely there are others …? Dahomey didn’t come under French control until 1894 when they installed a puppet king. > **[Béhanzin, King of Dahomey, one of the last African Resistant to French...](https://afrolegends.com/2012/05/14/sans-parole-sans-honneur-la-loi-du-materialisme-behanzin-one-of-the-last-african-resistant-to-colonization/)** > > Béhanzin (Gbêhanzin) Hossu Bowelle or the ‘King Shark’ was one the most powerful kings in West Africa at the turn of the 19th century.  He was the eleventh king of Dahomey, and the last… Here is a report from 1865 witnessing sacrifices in Dahomey: [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2006.05.1302%3Aarticle%3D6](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2006.05.1302%3Aarticle%3D6) It’s possible that the sacrifices continued until 1894 when the last independent King of Dahomey was removed but I can’t find any confirmation of that. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/31 "2014-06-11T01:53:17Z")
It used to be the practice in some West African kingdoms to grab ahold of any passing travelers and sacrifice them when the king died. I don’t have any hard statistics, but I’d say that happened at least into the 19th century if not the 20th. Since it was kingdoms and not just villages, I suppose that would qualify. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/32 "2014-06-11T02:54:45Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > but I’d say that happened at least into the 19th century if not the 20th. Got any cites? There doesn’t seem to be any reports of this happening after 1870. The scramble for Africa was in full swing then and openly practicing human sacrifice would have been all the colonial powers needed to justify taking over your kingdom. The colonial powers were certainly brutal in their own way but they did put an end to human sacrifice wherever they took over. Any sacrifices that were government sanctioned after 1870 were probably done in secret, there doesn’t seem to be any records of anything after the 1865 Dahomey ritual. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/33 "2014-06-11T03:01:08Z")
Do we consdier _sati_ (the custom of a widow immolating herself on her husband’s funeral pyre) as a form of religious human sacrifice? According to Wikipedia, Sati was practised, legally, in Bali until 1903 and in Nepal until 1920 (and may have been practised illegally after those dates). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/34 "2014-06-11T04:47:09Z")
There are ongoing reports of human sacrifices in Liberia during its long civil war. [Charles Taylor](http://www.theaustralian.com.au/archive/news/liberia-leader-held-human-sacrifice/story-e6frg6uf-1111115791156) was essentially both a cult leader and the head of the Liberian government. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/35 "2014-06-11T14:03:26Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Well, hold on. The mere fact that a human sacrifice is conducted according to a certain ritual doesn’t mean that those conducting it believe the efficacy of the sacrifice comes from the ritual. They may have the ritual in order to mark, celebrate and call attention to the sacrifice, but they may very well still believe that it’s the sacrifice which matters, not the associated ritual. (Compare, e.g., the coronation of a king in the European monarchical tradition. It’s fitting that the king be crowned, but the coronation doesn’t itself effect anything.) > > In other words, those who hope to gain something from the divinity by human sacrifice don’t necessarily hope that the gain accrues from “the ritual itself”. I’m not sure I understand your point. To my mind, “the ritual” is typically composed of two aspects: (1) the various bits of mumbo-jumbo surrounding the killing (prayers, parage of the divine image, burning incense, what-have-you) and (2) the actual killing itself. The killing is a part of the ritual. It could well be that the killing isn’t, for whatever reason, marked with the right mumbo-jumbo (part 1 above), and yet still be effective within the sacrificer’s belief-system. Similarly, it could be the case that an animal killing could be substituted for the human (part 2 above) - which was, in fact, allegedly the case with the Me Sa ritual described in the source. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/36 "2014-06-11T14:05:12Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Dahomey didn’t come under French control until 1894 when they installed a puppet king. > [Béhanzin, King of Dahomey, one of the last African Resistant to French Colonization – African Heritage](http://afrolegends.com/2012/05/14/sans-parole-sans-honneur-la-loi-du-materialisme-behanzin-one-of-the-last-african-resistant-to-colonization/) > > Here is a report from 1865 witnessing sacrifices in Dahomey: > [The Daily Dispatch: February 18, 1865., [Electronic resource], Human sacrifices at \Dahomey\.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2006.05.1302%3Aarticle%3D6) > > It’s possible that the sacrifices continued until 1894 when the last independent King of Dahomey was removed but I can’t find any confirmation of that. Dahomey would be an excellent candidate - if we could push the date past the Cambodian one. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/37 "2014-06-11T14:12:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There are ongoing reports of human sacrifices in Liberia during its long civil war. [Charles Taylor](http://www.theaustralian.com.au/archive/news/liberia-leader-held-human-sacrifice/story-e6frg6uf-1111115791156) was essentially both a cult leader and the head of the Liberian government. This looks like the winner - depending on when he committed this act. If he held the sacrifice when he was president of Liberia, as head of state, it would be state-sanctioned. If he committed it when he was still a rebel, it would not qualify. The article doesn’t make it clear. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425/38 "2014-06-11T15:11:03Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Got any cites? There doesn’t seem to be any reports of this happening after 1870. The scramble for Africa was in full swing then and openly practicing human sacrifice would have been all the colonial powers needed to justify taking over your kingdom. The colonial powers were certainly brutal in their own way but they did put an end to human sacrifice wherever they took over. > > Any sacrifices that were government sanctioned after 1870 were probably done in secret, there doesn’t seem to be any records of anything after the 1865 Dahomey ritual. No, I don’t offhand. But I did say “at least into the 19th century,” which you confirm with the 1870 date, and I indicated I was unsure about the 20th. So we’re not in disagreement here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-sacrifice-government-sponsored/690425.md?page=1)