# Human vs Klingon vs Vulcan - How do they match up physically? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 10, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088 "2009-11-10T20:23:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f14d63/32.png) [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/My_Darn_Snake_Legs)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/21 "2009-11-11T18:13:04Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Is the Vulcan grip a factor? Certainly, but it seems like anyone can learn it if they try. Picard and Archer have both used it, I think. And I don’t think it would help with sports, and that was really the OP’s question. I’d think a non-contact sport like decathalon could go any way, but I’d give the Vulcan the edge if it’s held on a non-Vulcan world due to their being suited to higher gravity than other races. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/22 "2009-11-11T18:22:32Z")
> [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](#): > > Certainly, but it seems like anyone can learn it if they try. Picard and Archer have both used it, I think. > > And I don’t think it would help with sports, and that was really the OP’s question. What about, say, Greco-Roman wrestling, or maybe judo? ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/23 "2009-11-11T18:28:35Z")
> [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](#): > > Certainly, but it seems like anyone can learn it if they try. Picard and Archer have both used it, I think. I thought it was pretty well known that humans can’t do the Vulcan nerve pinch. That’s why they had Data do it in one of the Spock TNG episodes. Did Picard do it while/after he mind melded with Sarek or something? ---
**Author:** ![My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f14d63/32.png) [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/My_Darn_Snake_Legs)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/24 "2009-11-11T18:38:31Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I thought it was pretty well known that humans can’t do the Vulcan nerve pinch. That’s why they had Data do it in one of the Spock TNG episodes. Did Picard do it while/after he mind melded with Sarek or something? According to Wikipedia, both captains could do it after mind melds with Vulcans. Maybe it’s an instinct or something that’s passed along, but I dunno. The details are fuzzy. That wouldn’t explain why Data can do it, though, so it must be mechanical. Thus, I think anyone who tried to learn it probably could. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/25 "2009-11-11T18:39:40Z")
Even without the Vulcan nerve pinch, Spock handed Kirk his ass in _This Side Of Paradise_, and Kirk started that fight armed with a crowbar. Kirk’s log entry just before made it plain that he expected nothing less, and knew well he was in serious danger picking a fight with Spock: he refers to him as “the strongest man on the ship”, and in most hand to hand fights the crew ever gets into, Spock is seldom in any danger. (Until the 3rd season, but the writing was going downhill in that one.) Note that in _Bread and Circuses_, Spock has no difficulty holding off a trained gladiator, and spends most of the fight just trying to persuade his opponent to give up before getting hurt. Only when McCoy admits to needing help does Spock shift gears, and then he puts out both opponents’ lights without seriously struggling. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/26 "2009-11-11T18:40:16Z")
I can’t agree with those who say that Klingons are stronger than Vulcans. It’s more that Klingons generally like to fight (B’lonna Torres being the most prominent exception) and Vulcans generally don’t, so one gets a false impression. [geek mode] Consider “The Paradise Syndrome.” When Kirk is preparing to provoke Spock into rage to counteract the effect of the spores, he notes in his log that what he’s trying is quite dangerous, because Vulcans are many times stronger than humans. Not a little–_many_ times, which I’ll take to mean at least 4 times as strong. He arms himself with a steel pipe to give himself a better chance in the hand-to-hand combat he’s trying to start–and Spock bends it in two with ease. He shows no sign of feeling the blows Kirk manages to land. Consider “The Naked Time.” Kirk hits Spock hard at least twice, and the Vulcan shows little sign of noticing. One blow from Spock sends the captain flying across the room. I don’t think Kirk ever seriously believes that he can do physical damage to Spock in a fistfight without help. Contrariwise, it’s clearly possible for humans to mix it up with Klingons with a reasonable chance of winning. I admit that “Amok Time” and “Bread & Circuses” seem to contradict this view, but I can fanwank those. [/gm] ---
**Author:** ![My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f14d63/32.png) [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/My_Darn_Snake_Legs)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/27 "2009-11-11T18:42:36Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What about, say, Greco-Roman wrestling, or maybe judo? I gotta go with a Vulcan on those. The super-human strength and superior mental ability (which would help in those just as it helps in pool) would probably overcome the Klingon’s mass and the human’s pluckiness. I kinda wonder about how weight classes would work there, though. Does anyone know if Vulcans weigh more since they’re probably more dense than folks from worlds with lighter gravity? Seems like they would, but I’m not a physicist. If their strength and mass are proportional, then we might end up with a contest that is more even, but in which Klingon and human adults would have to fight tiny Vulcans or Vulcan children. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/28 "2009-11-11T18:44:58Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I thought it was pretty well known that humans can’t do the Vulcan nerve pinch. That’s why they had Data do it in one of the Spock TNG episodes. Did Picard do it while/after he mind melded with Sarek or something? I’ll fanwank that. Doing the nerve pinch requires very precise muscular control, I’ll say, and would be trivial for Data to accomplish but difficult for most humans. I agree that Picard & Archer’s ability to achieve that level of control derived from having melded very deeply with Vulcans. Kirk & Spock specifically comment that Kirk has been unable to master it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/29 "2009-11-11T18:48:35Z")
> [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > What about, say, Greco-Roman wrestling, or maybe judo? > > I gotta go with a Vulcan on those. The super-human strength and superior mental ability (which would help in those just as it helps in pool) would probably overcome the Klingon’s mass and the human’s pluckiness. Quite possibly – but I meant _“if he gets a hold of the other guy’s shoulder for a moment during the match, can he use the Vulcan grip for an insta-win?”_ ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/30 "2009-11-11T19:33:34Z")
What about endurance? Is the only head to head on this Archer beating T’pol on the treadmill? ---
**Author:** ![My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f14d63/32.png) [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/My_Darn_Snake_Legs)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/31 "2009-11-11T21:57:19Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Quite possibly – but I meant _“if he gets a hold of the other guy’s shoulder for a moment during the match, can he use the Vulcan grip for an insta-win?”_ Oh! Heh…I dunno. I bet he could. I don’t know if the rules would allow it. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/32 "2009-11-11T22:33:01Z")
> [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](#): > > \ > This reminds me of a gripe I have about Spiderman II. Spiderman is super strong and if he punches a normal face, that face should just be pudding. I’m sure he pulls punches when fighting normal villains, but he \*really \*wanted to kill the crap out of Doc Oc in that movie, and Oc keeps fighting despite \*not \*having a super-face. \ > \ Captain Fanwank to the rescue! You’ll recall that Otto Octavious was working for Osborne Industries. I submit that during his research he discovered that he would require enhanced physical strength & resilience to support his artificial arms. He found and used Osborne’s strength-enhancing formula, which accounted for his ability to stand up to a spider-punch and also contributed to his mental instability. ---
**Author:** ![My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f14d63/32.png) [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/My_Darn_Snake_Legs)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/33 "2009-11-11T22:47:36Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Captain Fanwank to the rescue! > > You’ll recall that Otto Octavious was working for Osborne Industries. I submit that during his research he discovered that he would require enhanced physical strength & resilience to support his artificial arms. He found and used Osborne’s strength-enhancing formula, which accounted for his ability to stand up to a spider-punch and also contributed to his mental instability. Sir, I’ll buy that for the movie, as otherwise they would have just ripped his spine out the first time he tried to stand on them. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/34 "2009-11-11T22:52:17Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’ll fanwank that. Doing the nerve pinch requires very precise muscular control, I’ll say, and would be trivial for Data to accomplish but difficult for most humans. I agree that Picard & Archer’s ability to achieve that level of control derived from having melded very deeply with Vulcans. Kirk & Spock specifically comment that Kirk has been unable to master it. Nitpick: But McCoy, who was carrying Spock’s Katra in “Search For Spock” was unable to do a nerve pinch, even though he should have had the exact know how and memory in his head. So, what’s that about? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/35 "2009-11-11T22:52:55Z")
> [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](#): > > Sir, I’ll buy that for the movie, as otherwise they would have just ripped his spine out the first time he tried to stand on them. The only problem with my explanation is that it seems contradicted by the holding-May-hostage scene, when she hits him with her umbrella to keep him from stabbing Spidey on the sly. But I suppose we can say that he was simply surpirsed rather than injured. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/36 "2009-11-11T22:56:32Z")
> [@Small\_Hen](#): > > Nitpick: But McCoy, who was carrying Spock’s Katra in “Search For Spock” was unable to do a nerve pinch, even though he should have had the exact know how and memory in his head. So, what’s that about? Huh? You forgot to say “hotshot.” It’s “what’s that about, hotshot? Huh? WHAT’S THAT ABOUT?” Now, to continue fanwanking, I’ll say that McCoy was so discombobulated by the very odd circumstances–recall that he didn’t know that he had Spock’s katra at that point–that he could not muster sufficient muscle control to do it correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/37 "2009-11-11T22:56:54Z")
When Spock freaked out after seeing the Medusan he went to the bridge to take over the helm and it took four men to subdue him. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/38 "2009-11-11T22:58:00Z")
> [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](#): > > Sir, I’ll buy that for the movie, as otherwise they would have just ripped his spine out the first time he tried to stand on them. Which is rather my point. Otto being able to use the arms only works if he is already super-strong. (Though I don’t think his meat parts were as strong as movie-spidey.) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/39 "2009-11-11T22:58:09Z")
> [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](#): > > I was given to understand that Vulcans are something like 6 to 10 times stronger than your average human due to the high Vulcan gravity and their copper-based physiology. I would imagine that would make them faster too, but I’m no physicist. I don’t have a citation for that, it’s just a memory I have from somewhere. Not a Chemical Engineer or Physicist either, but wouldn’t Vulcans be slower and have a bit less endurance because their copper based blood having a harder time transferring oxygen? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088/40 "2009-11-11T23:07:11Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Not a Chemical Engineer or Physicist either, but wouldn’t Vulcans be slower and have a bit less endurance because their copper based blood having a harder time transferring oxygen? No reason why it needs to. We’re not talking about the chemical reactivity of iron or copper here, but a complex protein which happens to include one or the other. “Insufficient data”, as Spock would say - but in _Amok Time_, McCoy uses the excuse that Kirk isn’t adapted for the thin Vulcan atmosphere to use the hypo on him, which suggests that Vulcan blood is if anything more efficient than human. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human-vs-klingon-vs-vulcan-how-do-they-match-up-physically/517088.md?page=3)