# human\_extinction thinks we should consider Holocaust denial **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 27, 2009, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733 "2009-09-27T06:33:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/61 "2009-09-28T16:57:51Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Do you mean “in dispute” much like it is “in dispute” whether or not we landed on the moon? If you claim that the rough estimate of 11-to-twelve million people butchered by the Nazis is in serious dispute (not, “It was 10.78!” “No, it was 11.42!”), please provide a cite from a reputable historian. > > If, on the other hand, you mean that some (or many) non-historians tend to understand that it was an effort to exterminate the Jews that ended up including others, as well, then that’s light years different from the 11 million figure being in dispute. And even then, I’m not aware of anybody, at all, who has argued that there should only be the six million counted and that anybody else butchered by the Nazis simply doesn’t count and shouldn’t be counted. That sounds like a massive strawman and I’d like a cite for that if anybody is claiming it. > > Notice what I was responding to, a claim that “Holocaust history” was being rewritten. But it isn’t. It’s not. Except by Deniers. Any reputable historian who looks at the death counts will note what they were. Historians are not, regardless of the strange views of some in this thread, engaged in covering up the deaths of gentiles in any way, shape, or form. > > History has not been ‘rewritten’. Any accurate and reputable historian who conducts an analysis of the period will mention all the deaths. We’re talking about The Holocaust. If the Holocaust includes non-Jews then the number of murders is ~11 million, if it doesn’t, then the number is ~6 million. Whether or not the murder of non-Jews should be considered part of the Holocaust is in dispute. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/62 "2009-09-28T18:16:26Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Many people and countries have disasters in their past. The Irish have the potato famine, the Germans have two world wars, the Polish have a world war, the Russians have revolution, world wars, communist mass slaughter, Ukraine has the famine, in America you have the decimination or extermination of the Indians. China has the Japanese invasion and Mao, Japan has WW-II, etc. And Europe as a whole has been baptised in bloody murder thousands of times. The only reason the Holocaust is more relevant to me as part of European history than the Black Death, the Hundred Years War, the killings of Attila the Hun, or Djengis Khan or the centuries of Ottoman Turk oppression is that it is slightly more recent. But only as a minor catastrophe in a string of catastrophes that marked the early part of the 20th century. Wow. Wrong. WWII is inarguably the single greatest event (great in the sense of huge and influential, not in the sense of awesome) in human history. The German’s attempted genocide of the Jews is arguably the single greatest aspect of that event. To minimize it as a footnote is to exhibit the kind of ignorance of history that, well, that breeds holocaust denial. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/63 "2009-09-28T19:02:07Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Wow. Wrong. WWII is inarguably the single greatest event (great in the sense of huge and influential, not in the sense of awesome) in human history. **The German’s attempted genocide of the Jews is arguably the single greatest aspect of that event**. To minimize it as a footnote is to exhibit the kind of ignorance of history that, well, that breeds holocaust denial. (my bolding) As much as I detest Holocaust denial or shrugging-of, the statement is wrong. The war wasn’t fought for killing Jews or to stop it. Politically speaking (only about WW II) nothing would’ve changed if the Holocaust hadn’t happened. The greatest event is D-Day or maybe the atom bombs. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/64 "2009-09-28T19:15:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Which you admit is up for debate…In which case, I’d just shrug and say “words change, get over it” - _especially_ when there **are** non-ambiguous terms that do refer to the specifically Jewish part of the whole sad affair. I haven’t even been arguing that point one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/65 "2009-09-28T19:34:40Z")
> [@emcee2k](#): > > What? No. It’s definitely in dispute. Whether or not the murder of non-Jews, should be include under the term Holocaust has been debated for years. I don’t even think the 11 million count is even in the majority. > > On the other hand, the idea that excluding non-Jews from the term is “rewriting history”, is also false. It referred specifically to the Jewish genocide before it became a blanket term for all the Nazis’ mass killings. One aspect that distinguishes the Jewish (and Romani) Shoah from other kinds of atrocities of that period is that the Nazis sent Jewish children – including infants – to the gas chambers. In general, they didn’t do that with other ethnic groups. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/66 "2009-09-28T20:22:03Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Wow. Wrong. Nope. Wrong. Wow. > [@lissener](#): > > WWII is inarguably the single greatest event (great in the sense of huge and influential, not in the sense of awesome) in human history. Doubt it. There are wars that changed the course of history. WW-II mostly hastened development already in progress. > [@lissener](#): > > The German’s attempted genocide of the Jews is arguably the single greatest aspect of that event. Soviet deaths were more than four times the number of Jewish casualties. Why do you attempt to minimize those millions of innocent Soviet civilians? > [@lissener](#): > > To minimize it as a footnote is to exhibit the kind of ignorance of history that, well, that breeds holocaust denial. And yet, you have just minimized the murder of all those other people. Even if we include the killings in Asia that started before WW-II and had little to do with Nazism, then WW-II was not the worst loss of human life and especially if we consider in relation to population size. In the 20th century it probably ranked in third place. Tamerlane’s almost nihilistic massacres murdered many millions. But some consider the murder done by Djengis Khan to be the worst – in terms of raw numbers - in history. Which is rather impressive considering the weapons. Although the murders in Rwanda, done mostly with knives, was more “effective” than those perpetrated by the Nazis – and absolutely fits under the arbitrary category of being a people that is attempted exterminated. So does the Armenian Holocaust which was also rather low tech. And some believe the Muslim invasion of India cost in the region of 80million deaths – 4 times WW-II. The mass killings by the Red Khmers I believe are the worst in history in relation to population size. The murder done by Mao’s communists killed up to 80million. Soviet communists killed around 2-3 times those killed in WW-II. Although debated, many Ukrainians consider Stalin’s murders in Ukraine to be a genocide, fully on par with the Holocaust. The Black Death killed around half of the whole population of Europe. There were whole regions which were left practically uninhabited. Hundreds of tribes that once peopled the Americas exists no more. Mostly because of unintended consequences of new sicknesses. But dead is dead. And I fail to see the importance of weather the dead have a recognised nation. Ukraine was not a nation when Stalin killed them, now it is a nation. Does that mean their death is suddenly less important? And of course, for the man about to be killed there is little difference if he holds a passport or not. Human life is not given worth by not being the dominant people of a country. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/67 "2009-09-28T21:20:50Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > You don’t fight ignorance like this, it just makes those who consider themselves to have a so called “open mind” more sympathetic towards the denier’s position. > > Yes, to an extent it is bizarre to have an “open mind” about something like the holocaust, or moon landings, or whatever, but there is a huge population of basically decent folk who just don’t realise the strength of the evidence behind these events. > > Don’t let them be swayed to the denier’s POV by self righteousness please. Bullshit, Holocaust denial is willful ignorance most often in the service of a far more disgusting agenda and it deserves to be called out as such. Your equivalence to the moon landing denials is laughable. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/68 "2009-09-29T04:21:23Z")
I agree with **Rune** , but only to an extent: The Holocaust sits so heavily in our history because it was committed by “people like us” from the perspective of most North American and European history textbook authors. As long as that is the case, it will have a position in history books that is disproportionate to the percentage of the human race it killed off. It will be remembered long after the two World Wars have merged, historiographically, into a single period, much like the Hundred Years’ War was created after the fact out of many smaller conflicts divided by periods of peace. I also think that the term “Holocaust” should be as inclusive as possible, and that we should reserve the Hebrew word _Shoah_ for the specifically Jewish experience within the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/69 "2009-09-29T05:12:57Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Doubt it. There are wars that changed the course of history. WW-II mostly hastened development already in progress. Thanks for this, for clarifying how much I can improve my quality of life by not wasting any more time on you. And for reminding me that just because someone can type that doesn’t mean they have anything worth saying. You’ve saved me a lot of stress. While I welcome debate on my second point, which again I noted was arguable–the centrality of the intended genocide–there’s simply no question that WWII is the single greatest event in the history of human civilization. Anyone who starts out denying that has nothing of value to contribute to any discussion on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/70 "2009-09-29T05:13:31Z")
[nitpick] “Shoah” is generic, as one newspaper (NY Times?) recently learned when they mistranslated an Israeli comment about a shoah as a “holocaust”. Ha Shoah refers to the Jewish experience during the Holocaust, though. [/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/71 "2009-09-29T05:27:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > [nitpick] “Shoah” is generic, as one newspaper (NY Times?) recently learned when they mistranslated an Israeli comment about a shoah as a “holocaust”. Ha Shoah refers to the Jewish experience during the Holocaust, though. [/nitpick] Thnk yu. I guess ‘ha’ is a definite article in Hebrew? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/72 "2009-09-29T05:39:28Z")
[quote=“lissener, post:62, topic:511733”] Wow. Wrong. WWII is inarguably the single greatest event (great in the sense of huge and influential, not in the sense of awesome) in human history./QUOTE] It is **not** inarguable. I could make a case for others, from the black death to the communist revolution. In retrospect, WWII was not quite as great or important as the so-called Greatest Generation would have it. I’m not denying that the Holocaust is a big reason to elevate the war to top status, but I’m not convinced of its influence in the long view. There have been other big wars, and other genocides. There doubtless will be again, more’s the pity. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/73 "2009-09-29T05:45:46Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] While I welcome debate on my second point, which again I noted was arguable–the centrality of the intended genocide–there’s simply no question that WWII is the single greatest event in the history of human civilization. Anyone who starts out denying that has nothing of value to contribute to any discussion on the subject. [/QUOTE] Wow. Do you practice being a smug bastard in front of the mirror or something? We’ve pointed out how it can be argued - you can’t declare yourself right by fiat, that only works in the Vatican. Ass. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/74 "2009-09-29T05:46:45Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I guess ‘ha’ is a definite article in Hebrew? Truth be told I’m really not sure. You’d need to ask one of our resident Hebrew language speakers, what little I learned by in middle and high school has mostly left me by now. I’ve also quite possibly written it wrong, as I’ve seen it as Ha-Shoah, Hashoah, Ha Shoah, etc… But yeah, the two together refer to The Holocaust, shoah on its own translates to, roughly (I think) “disaster” or “calamity”. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/75 "2009-09-29T06:13:43Z")
[quote=“MrDibble, post:72, topic:511733”] > [@lissener](#): > > Wow. Wrong. WWII is inarguably the single greatest event (great in the sense of huge and influential, not in the sense of awesome) in human history./QUOTE] > It is **not** inarguable. I could make a case for others, from the black death to the communist revolution. In retrospect, WWII was not quite as great or important as the so-called Greatest Generation would have it. I’m not denying that the Holocaust is a big reason to elevate the war to top status, but I’m not convinced of its influence in the long view. There have been other big wars, and other genocides. There doubtless will be again, more’s the pity. There’s no single event (I can’t believe I’m even stooping to argue this) that has had as huge a contemporary impact–while it was happening–globally, ever, in human civilization. Nothing comes close. That’s not even counting the HUGE paradigm shift that happened in the global civilization as a direct result of WWII; in every conceivable field: technological, sociological, politcal–ever, on such a global scale, in the history of human civilization. None of the other events you suggest even come in a close second as far as global and historical impact. Inarguable. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/76 "2009-09-29T06:21:36Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > [Are the Holocaust Revisionists right? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=533687) > > I think it would be fitting that the world know your real name. No insult is enough to describe your evil ignorance. It is thoroughly documented that six million people were murdered, and rather than look at the volumes of evidence, you ignore it and tell us about some other evil fucks who decided on the back of a napkin that the evidence of murder is insufficient. Holocaust denial is the mark of the beast. Lynch mobs who leap to conclusions because someone dares to ask questions about a taboo topic are the mark of the beast. I would find the behaviour shown by you to be ironically funny if it weren’t so appalling, given the context. The Nazis attempted to wipe out an entire group of people based on stereotyping, and ruthlessly vilified anyone who questioned them. Some guy posts what is on its face an open minded enquiry about something he says he’s seen, and it’s hard to pick out the calm factual responses from amongst the tide of hatred heaped upon him based on leaps to conclusions about his beliefs and motivations. Then a stupid prick like you has to show what an idiot you are by posting an OP based almost entirely based on assumptions and lies, vilifying the guy ruthlessly. It would be relieving to believe that the Nazis were some sort of evil anomaly and that their style of thought and behaviour are not something you and I would be capable of. If you want to see the refutation of that belief, go read the words **human\_extinction** has actually written, then come back and read your OP objectively. If you’re capable. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/77 "2009-09-29T06:28:28Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Inarguable. So long as you ignore all the people arguing it, sure. Me, I’d go with the Black Plague. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/78 "2009-09-29T06:46:45Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So long as you ignore all the people arguing it, sure. > > Me, I’d go with the Black Plague. Funny thing is, this isn’t even my original thought. It’s a given in WWII scholarship: I’m simply quoting, everyone from John Keegan to Stephen Ambrose to Ken Burns. Think about it: a single event that includes everything from the Holocaust to the Bomb to the division of most of the world between the U.S. and the USSR–to more parochial fallout like the GI Bill and women in the workplace and the first rumblings of the civil rights movement–to jet engine technology, radar–the planet has never undergone such an overall bottom to top change, from before an event to after an event (speaking in terms of human civilization, not Big Bangs or Cambrian Extinctions). Black plague? Not even close. Nowhere near the global impact, nowhere near the technological and sociological impact. It’s “arguable” only in the sense that there’s always someone somewhere willing to bang on a keyboard until everyone else has put the cat out and gone to bed. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/79 "2009-09-29T06:51:16Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Funny thing is, this isn’t even my original thought. It’s a given in WWII scholarship: I’m simply quoting, everyone from John Keegan to Stephen Ambrose to Ken Burns. “In other news, Falklands Island War Scholars declare Falklands Islands War as greatest event in human history.” ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/80 "2009-09-29T06:57:02Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > “In other news, Falklands Island War Scholars declare Falklands Islands War as greatest event in human history.” Wow, that was easy. Didn’t have to actually consider any of the substance; just, boom! Ad hominem dismissal! “I don’t have to engage the actual substance of the subject; I can just say it’s not valid because of who said it!” You must be very, very smart. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733.md?page=5)