# human\_extinction thinks we should consider Holocaust denial **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 27, 2009, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733 "2009-09-27T06:33:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/81 "2009-09-29T07:01:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Me, I’d go with the Black Plague. Nah. Agrarian Revolution, hands down. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/82 "2009-09-29T07:03:35Z")
Actually, you’ll note I didn’t say it was valid or invalid. But what I do note that is that you should consider the source. Just because WWII scholars say their event is the most important doesn’t mean they’re right - what else would they say? Miller’s choice of the Black Plague has an excellent case that can be made for it - for one not so small point, it effectively broke the back of feudalism and made way for the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/83 "2009-09-29T07:05:11Z")
Missed the edit window: I wasn’t, in case this was your obtusely subtle point, offering their names as evidence that it’s true; the substance of my post–which you ignored–addressed that. I only mentioned that I’d basically plagiarized the notion by way of suggesting that I wasn’t pulling it out of my ass like a lone voice in the mixed-metaphor wilderness. The evidence for the statement stands on its own, but certainly Keegan and Ambrose count as citeable sources on the subject. And dismissing someone simply because they’re an expert on a subject is just stupid. If a scholar of the Falkland Islands War stated unequivocally that it was the single greatest event in human history, the independent evidence would reveal him as an idiot. Simply making up an analogy doesn’t prove any kind of argument if the analogy is useless. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/84 "2009-09-29T07:12:37Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Actually, you’ll note I didn’t say it was valid or invalid. But what I do note that is that you should consider the source. Uh, I did consider the source. I’ve read thousands of pages by those and other authors. You weren’t saying I should consider the source; you were saying I should dismiss the source because, what, being a widely acknowledged scholar on a subject somehow, you argue, disqualifies anything they’d have to say on the subject. That’s just fucking retarded. Consider the source indeed: if my Aunt Fannie had said this, I’d demand way more evidence on the subject before I’d accept it. If such a statement is made by one of the world’s most highly regarded scholars on a subject, then–_considering the source_–I’d give it some weight. You want to disprove the scholarship of John Keegan? Have at it, seriously, it would be a fascinating project to fact-check one of his books and mine it for flaws great enough to substantially undermine his scholarship. I’d love to see your work. As ridiculous as shit gets around here? This argument? Is the most retarded ever. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/85 "2009-09-29T07:13:21Z")
Well, that’s good, because again, I wasn’t addressing whether WWII is or isn’t the most important event in history - I agree, there is plenty of evidence to make that case and I would expect WWII scholars to be able to make that case very strongly. I also wasn’t claiming that this was somehow a novel notion. It is not, however, **inarguably** true because WWII scholars say that’s so, which is where this hijack of the thread has gotten to. Also, it’s 1 in the morning, and I enjoy making wisecracks to amuse myself. Edit to add: Dismiss? I said no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/86 "2009-09-29T07:21:26Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Well, that’s good, because again, I wasn’t addressing whether WWII is or isn’t the most important event in history - I agree, there is plenty of evidence to make that case and I would expect WWII scholars to be able to make that case very strongly. I also wasn’t claiming that this was somehow a novel notion. It is not, however, **inarguably** true because WWII scholars say that’s so, which is where this hijack of the thread has gotten to. > > Also, it’s 1 in the morning, and I enjoy making wisecracks to amuse myself. > > Edit to add: Dismiss? I said no such thing. Sorry, I was just thinking I’d gotten way to pissy on what’s essentially a dryly historical subject to do any further good discussing it. But wisecrack or not, your initial post in the hijack does, in fact, suggest that being an expert on something is somehow a disqualifying factor–which suggests dismissal, to me, very strongly, and on very shaky grounds. And I wasn’t, again, arguing that it’s inarguable BECAUSE scholars say so; I was saying it’s inarguable because of the simple factual nature of the other evidence I suggested (bomb, holocaust, radar, etc.). The “hypothesis,” if you will, I stole from historians; the evidence is there for all to see. I had no intention of conflating the two. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/87 "2009-09-29T07:41:48Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Think about it: a single event that includes everything from the Holocaust to the Bomb to the division of most of the world between the U.S. and the USSR–to more parochial fallout like the GI Bill and women in the workplace and the first rumblings of the civil rights movement–to jet engine technology, radar–the planet has never undergone such an overall bottom to top change, from before an event to after an event (speaking in terms of human civilization, not Big Bangs or Cambrian Extinctions). Black plague? Not even close. Nowhere near the global impact, nowhere near the technological and sociological impact. Sorry, but I don’t agree. WWII was, essentially, a defense of the Enlightenment ideals that had been taking root in Europe for two centuries. It didn’t alter the course of history, so much as prevent it from being altered by beating down and discrediting the aberration of fascism. The technological changes were not innovations of the war, although the pressures of the conflict certainly sped their development. The Black Plague, on the other hand, utterly changed the course of history in ways that are hard to comprehend at this remove. It utterly destroyed the existing social order, necessitating that it be completely rebuilt. By cutting across all social barriers, and decimating them equally, it led to as radical a redistribution of wealth as has been seen since the invention of the concept. Without the Black Plague, there would be no middle class. The GI Bill made college accessible to everyone. The Black Plague made _books_ accessible to everyone - the clothes of all those millions dead made paper, for the first time in history, cheap to produce. And the Plague was global - at least as global as WWII. It didn’t just decimate Europe, but raged across Asia and Northern Africa. True, it didn’t touch Australia or the Americas, but then, for the most part, neither did WWII, at least not directly. That being said, the arguments in favor of WWII are plenty strong, and if the wind were Northerly, I might be arguing the other side. Point being, there isn’t a single, inarguable answer to this sort of question. It is, at the end of the day, largely a matter of opinion. WWII was obviously a matter of staggering importance, but it is hardly unique in this regard as human history goes, and we are still very, very close to it - I don’t think it’s possible to accurate judge the relative importance of any event, no matter how momentous, when it still exists within living memory. Everything looks bigger when you’re right up next to it. There are, in fact, very good arguments to be made in favor of a number of other events, and insulting someone simply for having a different view does very little to prove your position. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/88 "2009-09-29T07:41:54Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Inarguable. yet here we are, arguing with you. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/89 "2009-09-29T07:49:54Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > But wisecrack or not, your initial post in the hijack does, in fact, suggest that being an expert on something is somehow a disqualifying factor–which suggests dismissal, to me, very strongly, and on very shaky grounds. No, he was just suggesting that WWII scholars might be biased _as to the importance of their field_, not that all their expertise is to be dismissed. Personally, I vote for the Russian Revolution, without which I doubt you’d have had WWII, or else the use of the bomb on Japan, or a lot of other things I’m sure you’re just putting under the umbrella of WWII for convenience. For example, I’m sure women’s and other civil rights would have advanced anyway. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/90 "2009-09-29T15:33:45Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That being said, the arguments in favor of WWII are plenty strong, and if the wind were Northerly, I might be arguing the other side. Cool. So this is just a lesson you’re teaching me, a scolding I get for using a word like “inarguably.” Read over my posting history, **Miller**. I tend to work pretty hard to stay away from such words, let alone hit the return key a couple times and retype it in its own paragraph. Your calculated sophistry notwithstanding (WWII _didn’t affect America?_ As vast as the body of works on such a subject might be, it’s nowhere near complete; the effects are still accumulating.), your case for the Black Plague being one of the greatest events in human history goes largely without saying. It still remains a distant second or third to WWII on global scale and world-changing effect. (Distant enough to admit a word of the size of “inarguably.”) And yeah, **Dibble** , we get that you can literally \*argue \*the fact. By an equally literal (and useless) definition, monkeys can type. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/91 "2009-09-29T17:17:32Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Thanks for this, for clarifying how much I can improve my quality of life by not wasting any more time on you. And for reminding me that just because someone can type that doesn’t mean they have anything worth saying. You’ve saved me a lot of stress. > > While I welcome debate on my second point, which again I noted was arguable–the centrality of the intended genocide–there’s simply no question that WWII is the single greatest event in the history of human civilization. Anyone who starts out denying that has nothing of value to contribute to any discussion on the subject. You are obviously an idiot, but so much the more to educate. The WW-II was of course a very large event, and it might have been until then the event that had had a direct negative impact on the largest number of people – in that fashion it might be termed greatest event. It is still a very important event because many of those people and people who have known those people are still alive. But I do not believe it was in any way the greatest event in human history, because it does not appear to have caused any great lasting political change that would not have happened anyway. So much the worse. It was bloody useless pointless slaughter. The greatest consequences of WW-II seem to have been the demolition of European colonial empires. This would have happened anyway in the 20th century. The rise of the USA as the dominant power. Would have happened anyway in the 20th century. The Cold War. Would have happened anyway. Even Japan found its places as a dominant Asian power despite being first being turned to rubble. And the creation of Israel, which anti-Zionists keep saying was atonement by Europeans powers for the Holocaust, this would have happened anyway and was not in any way so tightly tied to the extermination of Jews as various dictators in the Middle East like to think. It might have been different if the other side had won WW-II. But probably not. And all those inventions that was made during the war – with the possible exception of the atom bomb - would have been invented in the 20th century with or without the war. The war may have hastened the invention by a decade or two. Others it may have put back. And women’s rights had been happening long before WW-II and would have continued anyway. The GI Bill was such a global important event of historic consequences that I had to look it up in Wikipedia to see what it was. Turns out it was some sort of domestic US bill that provided college education to US veterans. Sounds a bit like Lex Servilia Glaucia. A massive five other language wikipedias found it important enough to translate. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/92 "2009-09-29T17:39:25Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Cool. So this is just a lesson you’re teaching me, a scolding I get for using a word like “inarguably.” Read over my posting history, **Miller**. I tend to work pretty hard to stay away from such words, let alone hit the return key a couple times and retype it in its own paragraph. Is it? Seems to be in character for you, but I’ll take your word at it if you feel otherwise. > [@](#): > > Your calculated sophistry notwithstanding (WWII _didn’t affect America?_ As vast as the body of works on such a subject might be, it’s nowhere near complete; the effects are still accumulating.)… Not what I said. I said it didn’t _directly_ affect America, in that no American cities were bombed, no invaders set foot on our soil, and no American citizens were killed. > [@](#): > > …your case for the Black Plague being one of the greatest events in human history goes largely without saying. It still remains a distant second or third to WWII on global scale and world-changing effect. (Distant enough to admit a word of the size of “inarguably.”) Well, that’s just wrong. Nothing to be ashamed about, there. Everyone’s wrong from time to time. No point in getting this angry about it. ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/93 "2009-09-29T17:47:35Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Truth be told I’m really not sure. You’d need to ask one of our resident Hebrew language speakers, what little I learned by in middle and high school has mostly left me by now. I’ve also quite possibly written it wrong, as I’ve seen it as Ha-Shoah, Hashoah, Ha Shoah, etc… > > But yeah, the two together refer to The Holocaust, shoah on its own translates to, roughly (I think) “disaster” or “calamity”. Just answering what I didn’t see answered here: There are prefixes used for articles in hebrew. ‘Ha’ is indeed ‘the’. There’s also ‘Be’ or ‘B’‘, which is ‘in’, and ‘ve’ or ‘v’’ for ‘with’. The more you know… ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/94 "2009-09-29T17:56:49Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > But I do not believe it was in any way the greatest event in human history, because it does not appear to have caused any great lasting political change that would not have happened anyway. Christianity? Pfft! Some other mystery religion surely would have filled the Romans needs for a meaningful religion and then provided a basis for European religion due to the widespreadness of the Roman Empire. European discovery of America? While certainly having an impact on the Indians, they were too few to count as the greatest event, and for a century or so the only effect was to hasten the rise and decline of the spanish empire. After a century of hardly mattering in world affairs, the Americas would have certainly been discovered regardless due to technological advances. ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/95 "2009-09-29T18:00:13Z")
How can you lump six years of world history together as a “single event”? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/96 "2009-09-29T18:06:15Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > By an equally literal (and useless) definition, monkeys can type. Get bent, Randal. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/97 "2009-09-29T18:07:42Z")
> [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#): > > How can you lump six years of world history together as a “single event”? With a large three-ring binder? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/98 "2009-09-29T18:11:04Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Nah. > Agrarian Revolution, hands down. Neolithic revolution is a good contender, but I’d argue it may not be considered an ‘event’. Personally, a favorite of mine is the expansion of the Mongol Empire, which arguably put the kibosh on the _other_ Eurasian civilizations and left the door open for the subsequent rise of Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/99 "2009-09-29T18:32:30Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Christianity? Pfft! Some other mystery religion surely would have filled the Romans needs for a meaningful religion and then provided a basis for European religion due to the widespreadness of the Roman Empire. Perhaps. And you could make a case of it if you used the Mithraic religion. Though I doubt it, and emperors before Constantine had tried to make the Mithraic cult a state religion. Tried and failed. > [@Ludovic](#): > > European discovery of America? While certainly having an impact on the Indians, they were too few to count as the greatest event, and for a century or so the only effect was to hasten the rise and decline of the spanish empire. After a century of hardly mattering in world affairs, the Americas would have certainly been discovered regardless due to technological advances. Europeans discovered America in around 1000. But the Vikings at the time were too few and the distance too long for the ships for them to capitalize on it. As it were America appear to have been discovered by the Spanish at exactly the right time for it to have maximum impact. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733/100 "2009-09-29T19:30:49Z")
Just curious: are we done with the original topic of this thread and have we moved on to “What event represents the end of history?” Because if so, I’m prepared to unsubscribe. Thanks in advance! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/human_extinction-thinks-we-should-consider-holocaust-denial/511733.md?page=6)