# Humanitarian Realpolitik **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 27, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338 "2015-07-27T18:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/21 "2015-08-02T14:40:30Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > You recognize the chauvinism of it, yet you cannot resist the urge to universalize Western standards of conduct (which you refer to as human rights) to societies that have no desire for your ‘rights’. Imagine telling an Amazonian hunter gatherer that he has the [Universal Human Rights](http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/#atop) to “join trade unions” and paid holidays! To some extent that is true. Terms like “good” and “bad”, “right” and “wrong”, “ethical” and “unethical” are born out of convention, not nature. Before there were societies those terms did not exist. But does that mean they are insignificant? There is a reason why societies - \*all \*societies - have invented those terms and live by them. Otherwise they would be entirely unable to function. You will argue now that the definition of what exactly is “good” and “bad” varies from one society to the next. That much is true, at least to an extent. Furthermore your point seems to be that people outside one society should strictly refrain from interfering with the values of that society. Here we disagree. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which you consider to be a “travesty” has been introduced in 1948 under the impression of the events during world war two, an event that made it quite clear that the international community cannot and must not always leave a society to its own devices based on the creed of non-interference. The UDHR has been shaped by western authors and you are not the first to critisize it as being “western” in content. Debating the content is one thing - saying that there should not be such a thing as universal human rights is quite another. > [@Construct](#): > > Rights don’t exist beyond government because in the state of nature no one has rights, and so-called ‘human rights’ are a travesty antithetical to the classic Lockean view of rights as the ability to perform an action without government interference. Modern ‘human rights’ are merely claims on other people’s property and are plainly dependent on a functioning Western government to exist. All rights that go beyond the right of the strongest depend on some form of government. That is not a “Western” thing. > [@Construct](#): > > If a country would be best served by a dictatorship, as many Middle Eastern nations clearly are, would you support propping up such a government? Where do you get that “clearly are” from? Sure - if you ask the current ruling class, they will tell you to leave them alone. “Everything is fine - we are living according to the values of our society here. Do not meddle.” If you ask the people under their thumb, they might sing a different tune. But I will answer your question: If a country would be best served by a dictatorship, I would support it. I just do not believe that such a country exists. ---
**Author:** ![MorphinePoet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morphinepoet/32/7315_2.png) [@MorphinePoet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MorphinePoet)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/22 "2015-08-02T16:36:18Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > Is Libya a better place now or when Gaddafi was still in charge? No, but the solution to its problems isn’t with setting up another Gaddafi, nor with supporting whatever he did to preserve ‘stability’. Letting a dictator have his way is nothing but a ticking bomb and a short term solution to whatever problems a country has. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/23 "2015-08-02T16:56:42Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Most people in Russia, East Germany and Romania nowadays say that they _preferred_ the communist era. > > In general, though, I’d say that my preferred US foreign policy is one that does as little as possible, because more often than not, our interventions end up making things worse. Point 1 is shockingly incorrect. The majority of their populations werent even alive during communism. Please prove me wrong. Point 2 I would definitly like some cites. Ever hear of the Marshall Plan? Post war Japan? South Korea? South Africa? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/24 "2015-08-02T17:21:25Z")
> [@](#): > > As an apologist for the former East German dictatorship, the young Mecklenburg native shares a majority view of people from eastern Germany. Today, 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, 57 percent, or an absolute majority, of eastern Germans defend the former East Germany. “The GDR had more good sides than bad sides. There were some problems, but life was good there,” say 49 percent of those polled. Eight percent of eastern Germans flatly oppose all criticism of their former home and agree with the statement: “The GDR had, for the most part, good sides. Life there was happier and better than in reunified Germany today.” [2009 English Spiegel article](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/homesick-for-a-dictatorship-majority-of-eastern-germans-feel-life-better-under-communism-a-634122.html) ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/25 "2015-08-02T17:31:46Z")
You understand that there is a big difference between defend and prefer, right? And in modern Germany they ca vote in DDR supporters; but they havent. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/26 "2015-08-02T17:34:23Z")
Or read hikers post #18. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/27 "2015-08-02T17:46:00Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Decolonization in India and ending apartheid in South Africa were successes, though that says more about how bad the prior regimes were than anything else, but I certainly wouldn’t call the collapse of the Soviet regime a ‘success’ (except for the very top echelons of Russian society, and I suppose for the Poles and the Baltic states). Most economic and social indicators cratered after 1990, and didn’t start improving for another ten years. (Outside the Baltics, the one Soviet republic to do the best is the one that underwent the fewest economic or political reforms). Most people in Russia, East Germany and Romania nowadays say that they _preferred_ the communist era. > > In general, though, I’d say that my preferred US foreign policy is one that does as little as possible, because more often than not, our interventions end up making things worse. You’re also conflating the USSR with Warsaw Pact countries. East Germany, Poland and Romania were not part of the USSR. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/28 "2015-08-02T17:52:30Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > [2009 English Spiegel article](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/homesick-for-a-dictatorship-majority-of-eastern-germans-feel-life-better-under-communism-a-634122.html) There is a great deal of nostalgia for the life that has been among East Germans. That goes along with a proclivity to whitewash the past. However, if you take a closer look at the numbers in your quote, you will find that while 57% of those polled say the GDR had more good than bad sides, only 8% go as far as to say that life there was happier and better than in reunified Germany today. That is in line with more recent polls. [This one](http://www.maz-online.de/Lokales/Bildergalerien-Region/MAZ-Umfrage-Alle-Ergebnisse-im-Ueberblick/12-forsa-ddr) was performed this year among 1001 citizens of the Land Brandenburg (smack in the middle of former East Germany). Asked whether they would like the GDR back 9% said yes, 86% said no (and 5% did not know). ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/29 "2015-08-02T18:11:12Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > I am German, and I woud very much like to know what gave you the idea that a majority of the East German population today would favor a return to communism. The most recent poll on the topic that I could find was performed by Mitteldeutscher Rundfunk (Central German Broadcasting, MDR - [cite in German](http://www.mdr.de/wissen/infratest100_zc-91499740_zs-5416865b.html)) in 2014. In it people of age group 45 to 59 were most sceptical of reunification. Still 80% within that group said it had more advantages than drawbacks. Among 14 to 29 year olds 96% said advantages outweighed drawbacks. **Hiker** , I had trouble linking this earlier, but here it is. (Like I said, it’s from a few years ago, but still, it’s informative). > **[Homesick for a Dictatorship: Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better...](https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/homesick-for-a-dictatorship-majority-of-eastern-germans-feel-life-better-under-communism-a-634122.html)** > > Glorification of the German Democratic Republic is on the rise two decades after the Berlin Wall fell. Young people and the better off are among those rebuffing criticism of East Germany as an "illegitimate state." In a new poll, more than half of... ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/30 "2015-08-02T18:14:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re also conflating the USSR with Warsaw Pact countries. East Germany, Poland and Romania were not part of the USSR. I didn’t say that they were. I was speaking about the fall of communism more generally. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/31 "2015-08-02T18:21:17Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > **Hiker** , I had trouble linking this earlier, but here it is. (Like I said, it’s from a few years ago, but still, it’s informative). > [Homesick for a Dictatorship: Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better under Communism - DER SPIEGEL](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/homesick-for-a-dictatorship-majority-of-eastern-germans-feel-life-better-under-communism-a-634122.html) CarnalK was already kind enough to link it (see above). So now I know where you’re coming from. But the headline of that article is misleading, because the people polled do not say that life was better under communism than it is today. They just say there was more good than bad. Only 8% say life was better then. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/32 "2015-08-02T18:24:34Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Point 1 is shockingly incorrect. The majority of their populations werent even alive during communism. Please prove me wrong. > > Point 2 I would definitly like some cites. Ever hear of the Marshall Plan? Post war Japan? South Korea? South Africa? You can prefer a historical era that you weren’t alive for. In a Levade Center poll earlier this year asking Russians ‘what form of government and economics is most legitimate’, the communist political system beat liberal democracy by 35% to 10% (‘the present political order’ was a third option, less popular than communism but more popular than democracy), and central planning beat free market economics 55% to 25%. > **[Russian Faith in \\](https://www.unz.com/akarlin/western-democracy-in-russia/)** > > This will probably be of no surprise to people who follow Russian sentiments, but still worth pointing out that according to the latest polls by Levada - an independent polling agency headed by pro-Western liberals - support for this thing called \\ ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/33 "2015-08-02T18:47:39Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > You can prefer a historical era that you weren’t alive for. > > In a Levade Center poll earlier this year asking Russians ‘what form of government and economics is most legitimate’, the communist political system beat liberal democracy by 35% to 10% (‘the present political order’ was a third option, less popular than communism but more popular than democracy), and central planning beat free market economics 55% to 25%. > > [Russian Faith in "Western-Style Democracy" Reaches All-Time Low, by Anatoly Karlin - The Unz Review](http://www.unz.com/akarlin/western-democracy-in-russia/) But Russia doesnt have any tradition of liberal democracy. How can they know? Again, a majority of Russians werent alive when the USSR crumbled. They have no memory of the KGB or the labor camps, or of the lack of consumer goods. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/34 "2015-08-02T19:19:37Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > But Russia doesnt have any tradition of liberal democracy. How can they know? Again, a majority of Russians werent alive when the USSR crumbled. They have no memory of the KGB or the labor camps, or of the lack of consumer goods. 1. the oldest cohorts are the most pro-Communists, and they at least remember the past. 2. people that idealize communism generally idealise the Brezhnev era, not the Stalin one. (A disturbingly high percentage of Russians still like stalin, though Stalin is even more popular in the liberal-democracy golden child Georgia). Likewise, people who consider themselves patriotic Americans are usually idealizing aspects of American history other than Jim Crow, Native American genocides etc. 3. in terms of material standard of living relative to the west, the average Russian was probably about as well off under Brezhnev as today, and since inequality was much lower than than now, the poorest Russians were almost certainly much better off. Again, relative to the west. (I’m quoting from Anatoly Karlin’s analysis here, and he’s distinctly not a communist sympathiser). 4. Russia did have a purportedly liberal democracy for about ten years (though there are widespread allegations the communists were cheated in the 1995 election). That’s almost as long as Nicaragua had socialism, and you’ll find a lot of right wingers claim that ten years was enough to show that socialism failed Nicaragua. (Mostly thanks to our policies towards the government, but that’s a separate issue). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/35 "2015-08-02T20:16:29Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Back in the old days of the cold war Realpolitik, mean the US propping up to dictators of countries with poor human rights records in order to gain their help in the global fight against Communism. I hate to burst your bubble, but they were propping up dictators long before the Cold War, and a lot of the motivation was simply business and imperialism. (Look up United Fruit Company) Communism was merely an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/36 "2015-08-02T20:51:39Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > In a Levade Center poll earlier this year asking Russians ‘what form of government and economics is most legitimate’, the communist political system beat liberal democracy by 35% to 10% (‘the present political order’ was a third option, less popular than communism but more popular than democracy), and central planning beat free market economics 55% to 25%. > > [Russian Faith in "Western-Style Democracy" Reaches All-Time Low, by Anatoly Karlin - The Unz Review](http://www.unz.com/akarlin/western-democracy-in-russia/) Remarkable figures - especially given the fact that the fall of communism was not really forced upon the Soviet Union from the outside. And now, a quarter century later they still believe it is the best political system - but they do not seem to undertake any serious attempt at restoring it. Why is that? As far as the questions asked in the OP, I am not sure what conclusions we are to draw from this. As far as Russia is concerned, I do not see any Western attempts at forcing our style of democracy upon them. At best we are advertising it to them. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/37 "2015-08-02T20:54:17Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I hate to burst your bubble, but they were propping up dictators long before the Cold War, and a lot of the motivation was simply business and imperialism. (Look up United Fruit Company) Communism was merely an excuse. The USA was never an imperialist power. Sure we acquired Cuba and the Phillipines as a result of the Spanish American war but we didnt colonize the Americas. And we werent a presence in the rest of the world pre WWII…we were isolationist. Business on the other hand… ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/38 "2015-08-02T20:56:43Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Remarkable figures - especially given the fact that the fall of communism was not really forced upon the Soviet Union from the outside. And now, a quarter century later they still believe it is the best political system - but they do not seem to undertake any serious attempt at restoring it. Why is that? > > As far as the questions asked in the OP, I am not sure what conclusions we are to draw from this. As far as Russia is concerned, I do not see any Western attempts at forcing our style of democracy upon them. At best we are advertising it to them. Putin’s too powerful today for anyone to make any serious attempt at constructing any alternative form of government, communist, liberal or otherwise. He’s not immortal though, so we’ll see what happens when he dies. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/39 "2015-08-02T20:59:57Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > The USA was never an imperialist power. Sure we acquired Cuba and the Phillipines as a result of the Spanish American war but we didnt colonize the Americas. And we werent a presence in the rest of the world pre WWII…we were isolationist. Business on the other hand… You don’t have to colonize to be imperialist. Teddy Roosevelt was definitely an imperialist president. It was the thing to do back then. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338/40 "2015-08-02T21:05:22Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Putin’s too powerful today for anyone to make any serious attempt at constructing any alternative form of government, communist, liberal or otherwise. He’s not immortal though, so we’ll see what happens when he dies. So they \*have \*Putin’s autocracy. What they \*want \*is communism, which they cannot get because of the former. They probably \*could \*get it, if their society was more liberal, which is the \*last \*thing they want. Twisted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humanitarian-realpolitik/726338.md?page=3)