# Humans and Chimps Interbreding - What does this mean? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298 "2006-05-18T18:52:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298/41 "2006-05-19T22:54:01Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > I know this is a rather unscientific reason to add to my doubt about humanzee or chuman fertility, or even viability, (and I think I’ve mentioned it before), but, in my estimation, there are enough humans who are pervy and twisted enough to have tried it already. I know a female chimp could probably tear a man limb from limb if she didn’t take kindly to his advances, but animals can be restrained, and men are not above gang rape. Just some horrible idle speculation. Quite true. But it does speak to such matings as not being casual (ie, there probably haven’t been too many attempts). And you never know what wonders the laboratory might produce. For instance, the enzymes that the sperm uses to help penetrate the ovum might not be compatible betwee the two species, but that’s nothing that a nice little needle couldn’t overcome! Still, if I had to bet, I’d bet on no viable hybrids (but I wouldn’t give that option heavy odds). Perhaps some ethically challenged scientist will be motivated to try a chimp/gorilla hybrid some time. A positive result would certainly up the odds for a viable chimp/human hybrid. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298/42 "2006-05-19T23:13:36Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > You’re getting things wrong. We’ve known for a while that chimps and humans are more closely related to each other than either of us are to gorillas. I’ve heard this before. I’m skeptical. I think this point would be extremely important in the evolution/creation debate. Can you please provide a reputable cite? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298/43 "2006-05-19T23:24:22Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > I’ve heard this before. I’m skeptical. I think this point would be extremely important in the evolution/creation debate. Can you please provide a reputable cite? Is [Scientific American](http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000DA09B-65AF-1C72-9EB7809EC588F2D7) reputable enough? Really, this is not very controversial, and any book on human evolution will likely point out that the data we have to date suggest gorillas split off the human/chimp/bonobo line about 7M years ago, then humans split off about 1-2M years later. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298/44 "2006-05-19T23:29:57Z")
The wiki entry for [ape](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape) does a very good job of describing the “evolution” of scientific thought about the phylogenetic relationship among the apes. Read the section entitled “History of hominoid taxonomy”. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298/45 "2006-05-20T01:45:20Z")
All I can say is, I wish zoology had been half this interesting when I was a freshman in college – I might have actually gotten a decent grade in it! ---
**Author:** ![Jebus\_H.Christ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Jebus\_H.Christ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jebus_H.Christ)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298/46 "2006-05-20T03:40:31Z")
Oen thing I am totally confused about is that the researcher say human and chimps (I really their ancestors) split and then came back together. How do they know there wasn’t interbreeding for the millions of years they say they were not interbreeding? I know that the latest divergences being on the X chromosone points to interbreeding. But how do they know when and for how long they were seperate before coming back to interbreed and whent he interbreeding took place? How do they know they weren’t only partially seperated with interbreeding going on the whoel time before the final split? ---
**Author:** ![Jebus\_H.Christ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Jebus\_H.Christ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jebus_H.Christ)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298/47 "2006-05-20T04:05:08Z")
Does this evidence point to how extensive the interbreeding was? How extensive would the interbreeding have to be to show up at all? ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298/48 "2006-05-20T04:05:27Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > The wiki entry for [ape](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape) does a very good job of describing the “evolution” of scientific thought about the phylogenetic relationship among the apes. Read the section entitled “History of hominoid taxonomy”. Are to the point yet were they should be required to do “a very good job of describing the ‘Intelligent Design’ of scientific thought…” as well? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298/49 "2006-05-20T05:01:06Z")
> [@Jebus H. Christ](#): > > Oen thing I am totally confused about is that the researcher say human and chimps (I really their ancestors) split and then came back together. > > How do they know there wasn’t interbreeding for the millions of years they say they were not interbreeding? I know that the latest divergences being on the X chromosone points to interbreeding. But how do they know when and for how long they were seperate before coming back to interbreed and whent he interbreeding took place? How do they know they weren’t only partially seperated with interbreeding going on the whoel time before the final split? > [@](#): > > Does this evidence point to how extensive the interbreeding was? How extensive would the interbreeding have to be to show up at all? Good questions, but I think beyond the scope of the sumamries I’ve read. I’m going to have to get my hands on the actual Nature article because I was thinking along those lines, too, as I was reading about this in the newspaper. The most I can get (and I’m not a geneticist, so I may be misunderstanding) is that they were able to measure the devergence time of a number of different genes. Presumably the divergence dates did not form a continuum, but showed two distinct peaks. How this technique is able to have that kind of resolution, I’m not sure. > [@Nic204](#): > > Are to the point yet were they should be required to do “a very good job of describing the ‘Intelligent Design’ of scientific thought…” as well? I think my pun works better. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298/50 "2006-05-20T05:06:41Z")
> [@Jebus H. Christ](#): > > **Humans and Chimps Interbreding - What does this mean?** **DUH!** It means a hitherto untapped\* porn market! 🙂 - I hope . . . ---
**Author:** ![Jebus\_H.Christ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Jebus\_H.Christ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jebus_H.Christ)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298/51 "2006-05-20T05:42:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Good questions, but I think beyond the scope of the sumamries I’ve read. I’m going to have to get my hands on the actual Nature article because I was thinking along those lines, too, as I was reading about this in the newspaper. The most I can get (and I’m not a geneticist, so I may be misunderstanding) is that they were able to measure the devergence time of a number of different genes. After thinking about this I think it has something to do with the divergences on the X chromosome being later. Meaning that the populations had seperated to the point that only female hybrids could breed and pass along genes on the X chromosome and male hybrids would be sterile. Please don’t take this as any more than my best guess. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298/52 "2006-05-20T22:47:43Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Actually, I think this is a pretty good explanation for soccer hooligans … I was thinking football. The phrase “inhuman strength” takes on new meanings. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298/53 "2006-05-21T19:15:42Z")
> [@Tripwire](#): > > Another interesting theory about humans is paedomorphy. While I tend to think it’s way out there in the case of human beings, it’s not theoretically implausible. Essentially, the idea is that humans evolved by prolonging adolescence and making sexual maturity come sooner. This is speculated on largely because juvenile ape skulls and so forth are remarkably more humanlike than their adult skulls. I’m a little skeptical of this. Most baby birds and mammals seem to have more prominent foreheads than the adults, as well as less prominent snouts. It’s even been suggested that “infantile forehead bulge” helps to stimulate maternal or parental instincts among warm-blooded animals. Sorry, no cite, other than a Time Life Nature Series volume on animal behavior that I read years ago. As for protochimps and protohumans breeding, why not? Horses and donkeys can interbreed and produce sterile mules and hinnies. At some time in the past, before those species had diverged as much, I’m sure the offspring would have been fertile as well. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298/54 "2006-05-21T19:56:09Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > As for protochimps and protohumans breeding, why not? Horses and donkeys can interbreed and produce sterile mules and hinnies. At some time in the past, before those species had diverged as much, I’m sure the offspring would have been fertile as well. I agree, but I think part of the confusion is the variety of ways this paper has been reported. The first article I read about it said the authors claimed that the human/chimp line first split 10M years ago, that the two lines diverged for 4M years, then merged again briefly about 6M years ago. 4M years isn’t out of the question, but it sure raised my eyebrows more than a little. Susequent articles have presented the findings differently, talking about a mixed population during that interval. That’s why I plan to get my hands on the actual Nature article and see for myself what these guys are saying. Unfortuantely, my little local library doesn’t subscribe to Nature, so I’ll have to make a trip to a bigger one sometime this week. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-and-chimps-interbreding-what-does-this-mean/357298.md?page=2)