# Humans did not domesticate the dog **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2008, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547 "2008-01-15T01:26:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/1 "2008-01-15T01:26:45Z")
I just saw a nature program last night on PBS. Part 2 I think is next Sunday. What a fascinating [program.](http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/dog/garbage.html) In short, biologist Raymond Coppinger says that wolves( with lower flight distance) hanging around dumps in China or thereabouts, 15,000 years ago fed off the refuse freshly dumped before the other much further away wolves got a chance and interbred with each other resulting in dramatic different behaviors and morphological expression, particularly barking which became an asset for the village and the first working assignment inducing humans to look after them. Coppinger has done genetic studies indicating higher genetic diversity in the far east than elsewhere. There’s more study to come but he thinks that the transformation occured over a human lifetime maybe 15,000 years ago. Coppinger refers to the 50 year Russian study by Dmitri Belyaev, where foxes were bred based on lower fear and tamability. The results were incredible and there is now a population of tame foxes showing genetic, behavioral, and morphological differences. From this [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tame_Silver_Fox) > [@](#): > > Notably, the foxes not only become more tame, but more dog-like as well: the new foxes lost their distinctive musky “fox smell”, became more friendly with humans, put their ears down (like dogs), wagged their tails when happy and began to vocalize and bark like domesticated dogs. Coppinger suggests that no one has ever tamed a wolf older than 19 days, and says mesolithic man just wouldn’t have the time or means to take care of the pups. I’m pretty well buying Coppinger’s theory. I saw those cute foxes. Comment ? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/2 "2008-01-15T01:34:23Z")
We learned about this in my domestication of animals class in college. I remember our prof saying it wouldn’t have made sense that humans just randomly took wolf pups home to take care of–because where would their motivation be. The scavenging theory makes a lot more sense to me, as well. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/3 "2008-01-15T01:35:11Z")
I’ve long read that it’s more like humans and dogs domesticated each other. Several influential scientists have long since suggested that dogs made us human. Check out “Animals in Translation” by Tample Grandin. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/4 "2008-01-15T05:50:02Z")
I’ve read that too. I don’t know how much weight the theory carries, but I read one study which suggested that dogs have been with us for over 100,000 years, and in fact Homo Sapiens out-competed Neanderthal, despite Neanderthal having several evolutionary advantages, because we were actually a human/dog symbiotic pair. Dog’s advanced hearing and smell freed up our brains to evolve into complex thinking and socialization, etc. I can’t remember where I read that, so I don’t know if it’s a fringe idea or something that is plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/5 "2008-01-15T06:04:48Z")
Certainly a lot of human farming (herding animals) and hunting wouldn’t be possible without the dog. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/6 "2008-01-15T06:29:30Z")
Good girl Lily. Good girl. ---
**Author:** ![Sockmunkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Sockmunkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sockmunkey)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2008, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/7 "2008-01-15T10:17:59Z")
I saw that show too. I always knew domestication was from selective breeding, but seeing such quick and dramatic results with those foxes just blew me away. This reminds me of that thread on wolf-dogs a while back. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/8 "2008-01-16T06:54:47Z")
This overlooks the fact that humans have a long history of making pets of every sort of random animal/bird/insect they possibly can. Dogs were genetically and behaviourally pre-disposed to move from random pethood to full-blown domestication. (While humans have made pets of, and tamed, wild carnivores of pretty much every species from cats to hyenas to cheetahs to bears, I believe only dogs, cats, and ferrets have been actually domesticated - and there’s room to argue about cats 😉 .) ---
**Author:** ![Sockmunkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Sockmunkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sockmunkey)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/9 "2008-01-16T08:25:33Z")
In how many of those predator species did anyone implement the multigenerational selective breeding that Belyaev did? If the wolves hadn’t kick-started they process themselves would humans have bothered to finish it? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/10 "2008-01-16T12:54:28Z")
I’d read about Belyaev’s work with foxes several years ago in American Scientist. But one aspect of his work that hasn’t gotten as much press is that, in addition to breeding domesticated versions of species, he’s also been able to breed striking more aggression and downright mean versions as well. It appeared in a New York Times article over a year ago: [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/health/25rats.html?pagewanted=all](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/health/25rats.html?pagewanted=all) > [@](#): > > On an animal-breeding farm in Siberia are cages housing two colonies of rats. In one colony, the rats have been bred for tameness in the hope of mimicking the mysterious process by which Neolithic farmers first domesticated an animal still kept today. When a visitor enters the room where the tame rats are kept, they poke their snouts through the bars to be petted. > > The other colony of rats has been bred from exactly the same stock, but for aggressiveness instead. These animals are ferocious. When a visitor appears, the rats hurl themselves screaming toward their bars. > > “Imagine the most evil supervillain and the nicest, sweetest cartoon animal, and that’s what these two strains of rat are like,” said Tecumseh Fitch, an animal behavior expert at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland who several years ago visited the rats at the farm, about six miles from Akademgorodok, near the Siberian city of Novosibirsk. Frank Albert, a graduate student at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, is working with both the tame and the hyperaggressive Siberian strains in the hope of understanding the genetic basis of their behavioral differences. > > “The ferocious rats cannot be handled,” Mr. Albert said. “They will not tolerate it. They go totally crazy if you try to pick them up.” > > When the aggressive rats have to be moved, Mr. Albert places two cages side by side with the doors open and lets the rats change cages by themselves. He is taking care that they do not escape to the sewers of Leipzig, he said. I see potential for a great horror movie here. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/11 "2008-01-16T15:00:59Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] \ I see potential for a great horror movie here. [/QUOTE] It kinda reminds me of Koontz’ The Watchers (without the sentient part) ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/12 "2008-01-16T16:07:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Coppinger refers to the 50 year Russian study… In Soviet Russia, dogs domesticate YOU! ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2008, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/13 "2008-01-18T01:59:26Z")
[QUOTE=Khadaji] > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by CalMeacham > \ > I see potential for a great horror movie here. It kinda reminds me of Koontz’ The Watchers (without the sentient part) [/QUOTE] Actually, it _should_ remind you of him. My aunt gave me a horror anthology ([Stalkers](http://www.amazon.com/Stalkers-Original-Tales-Masters-Terror/dp/B000FS6TCU/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200621497&sr=1-2)) 15 years ago that contained a Dean Koontz novella about super smart, super hatedful rats that try to murder a woman and her small son. It’s called **Trapped**. Apparently he also released it as a graphic novel. I can easily see it turned into a movie. ---
**Author:** ![Amblydoper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@Amblydoper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amblydoper)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2008, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/14 "2008-01-18T05:41:02Z")
[QUOTE=MEBuckner] In Soviet Russia, dogs domesticate YOU! [/QUOTE] HAHAHA! I have never laughed at one of these jokes before today… Well played. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2008, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/15 "2008-01-18T13:19:47Z")
But they _did_ give him [bionic parts.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximillion_%28fictional_dog%29) ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/16 "2008-01-18T15:07:48Z")
[QUOTE=Freudian Slit] We learned about this in my domestication of animals class in college. I remember our prof saying it wouldn’t have made sense that humans just randomly took wolf pups home to take care of–because where would their motivation be. [/QUOTE] Because they’re cute! When I watch shows about wolves, and there are pups, I want to take a wolf pup home and take care of it. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/17 "2008-01-18T18:44:29Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] Because they’re cute! When I watch shows about wolves, and there are pups, I want to take a wolf pup home and take care of it. [/QUOTE] The same reaction as many Stone Age hunters 🙂 . Making pets of young animals seems to be a standard human behaviour. When the young animal grows up into an adult with a set of physical and behavioral characteristics which make them suitable for domestication, we eventually end up with a new domesticated animal. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/18 "2008-01-18T19:01:06Z")
[QUOTE=Bookkeeper] The same reaction as many Stone Age hunters 🙂 . Making pets of young animals seems to be a standard human behaviour. When the young animal grows up into an adult with a set of physical and behavioral characteristics which make them suitable for domestication, we eventually end up with a new domesticated animal. [/QUOTE] Well, in class, the argument was that why would hunters take time off from their busy lives all of a sudden to do this? Plus, there’s fact that to actually domesticate a wild animal like a wolf takes several generations of breeding. The scavenging theory makes a lot more sense in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/19 "2008-01-18T19:37:17Z")
[QUOTE=Freudian Slit] Well, in class, the argument was that why would hunters take time off from their busy lives all of a sudden to do this? [/QUOTE] I thought current thinking was that hunter-gatherers generally had at least as much leisure time as we do now, maybe more. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547/20 "2008-01-18T20:02:39Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] I thought current thinking was that hunter-gatherers generally had at least as much leisure time as we do now, maybe more. [/QUOTE] I thought that hunter gatherers had much more leisure time that we do. I remember reading that studies of current hunter gatherers found out that they basically work about 4 or 5 hours a day. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-did-not-domesticate-the-dog/433547.md?page=2)