# Humans naturally carni-/herbi-/omnivores? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 12, 2006, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364 "2006-04-12T13:54:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/21 "2006-04-18T11:07:22Z")
I’ve always found it fairly convincing that the vast majority of humans simply do eat meat. We have a taste for it, and in many cases such as China low meat consumption seems more a function of availabiity and economics than anything else. Lord knows most Asian diets actually include more species and parts thereof than most western diets. This suggests to me people really have a biological urge animal protein and are willing to obtain it from whatever is local. In some places it simply isn’t going to be locally sustainable for everyone to have a burger. Plus we do have a special word ‘vegetarian,’ that’s not the default condition with ‘omnivores’ being a minority group. And that’s true in the vast majority of cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/22 "2006-04-18T14:09:54Z")
> [@stpierre](#): > > That seems pretty questionable. Under what circumstances is a system immune, as it were, to evolution? Why wouldn’t natural selection reward those individuals who were minutely better suited to the modern American diet? Admittedly, most of the most visible problems with said diet come after the age of reproduction, but good health is certainly rewarded during the mating process. How could the digestive tract become immune to evolution? Exapno’s answer covered this, but I just wanted to emphasize – evolution works on a much slower time scale then you seem to be conceiving of it. Mere hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of years of diverging diets between human populations is not going to be long enough to result in evolutionary change. And diets change a lot more than you think. No human population spends thousands or tens of thousands of years eating exactly the same thing generation after generation. Just as one example, think of the importance of the following items to the Indian diet and cuisine: chili peppers, chicken eggs, potatoes, tomatoes, onions. Now consider that before Vasco da Gama’s arrival in India kicked off major trading with Europe, none of these items were widely available in India. In a short time, these things became nearly indispensible in the Indian diet. I don’t know if you saw the P.B.S. programmes _1900 House_ or _Colonial House_ or _Frontier House_. From those shows you could see how much Anglo-American diets have changed in just a matter of 100-400 years. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/23 "2006-04-18T15:15:52Z")
> [@Vivren](#): > > I was under the impression that the leap in the evolution of brain size from small to large was in part due to the eating of meat. However, this could be circumstantial since the ability to obtain meat must have indicated the state of the brain at that point–which is to say it must have been advanced enough to make a weapon and wield it to hunt sucessfully. After reading about how the chimps hunted, I guess this behavior is not that “advanced.” Another theory is that humans, before they were successful hunters and when plant matter was scarce, figured out how to get meat no other animal could - they could get the marrow out of picked-over meals that not even scavengers could get. That gave them more protein, supporting more active brain usage, etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/24 "2006-04-18T17:25:50Z")
One question I’ve always wanted to ask is, of any of the higher order and more intelligent species on the planet, are ANY of them completely vegetarian? I can’t think of any examples…all the animals we consider the most intelligent are either omnivorous or carnivours. How about the great apes? Are they completely vegetarian, or do they supliment with insects? Just curious as the thread seems to be winding down. -XT ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/25 "2006-04-18T17:57:52Z")
Gorillas are vegetarian. Elephants - are they considered smart? They’re trainable… ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/26 "2006-04-18T18:20:01Z")
Gorillas are pretty much strict vegetarians. I imagine they do eat some insects though. The other apes are omnivores. Chimps hunt monkeys and eat insects, eggs, grubs and other small animals. Put any small defenseless animal in a chimp’s cage and they’ll probably kill it and eat it. Orangutans eat insects, although I don’t know if there’s any evidence they hunt mammals. Elephants are 100% vegetarian. And elephants are people. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/27 "2006-04-18T19:37:47Z")
Ah, elephants! I forgot about those. Thanks…I couldn’t remember. ( 😉 ) -XT ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/28 "2006-04-19T14:43:34Z")
And horses. They’re relatively smart too. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/29 "2006-04-19T17:24:04Z")
> [@bup](#): > > And horses. They’re relatively smart too. Horses? No, horses are dumb. Dumb, dumb, dumb. OK, maybe not dumb as a sheep. But damn dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/30 "2006-04-19T19:03:15Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > No, horses are dumb. Dumb, dumb, dumb. OK, maybe not dumb as a sheep. But damn dumb. I concur. Donkeys, however, are quite intelligent. Don’t even get me started on cows. We’re doing a favor by slaughtering those things. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/31 "2006-04-19T21:43:27Z")
I was going to say pigs too, but I think they are omnivores as well, aren’t they? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/32 "2006-04-19T22:19:39Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I was going to say pigs too, but I think they are omnivores as well, aren’t they? Definitely, as are bears and raccoons, two other candidates for non-primate high intelligence. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/33 "2006-04-19T22:24:55Z")
Dolphines and Whales too (which were actually what I was thinking of). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/34 "2006-04-19T22:33:49Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Dolphines and Whales too (which were actually what I was thinking of). Er, all members of order _Cetacea_ are essentially strict carnivores, save for the plankton-eating baleens which can’t seperate zooplankton from phytoplankton. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/35 "2006-04-20T14:00:56Z")
So, are donkeys smart? Or where does mule smarts come from? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/36 "2006-04-20T15:51:39Z")
> [@bup](#): > > So, are donkeys smart? You’ve never heard of a smart ass? ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/37 "2006-05-08T12:24:01Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Gorillas are pretty much strict vegetarians. I imagine they do eat some insects though. You’re right - according to [this](http://www.berggorilla.de/english/faq/dvers/fragen/fressen2.html) site non-plant foods make up 0.1% or less of their diet. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/38 "2006-05-09T18:47:10Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > How do you account for pandas Well, y’know, that bamboo grows really _really_ fast… ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/39 "2006-05-09T19:01:46Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > One question I’ve always wanted to ask is, of any of the higher order and more intelligent species on the planet, are ANY of them completely vegetarian? I can’t think of any examples…all the animals we consider the most intelligent are either omnivorous or carnivours. How about the great apes? Are they completely vegetarian, or do they supliment with insects? > > Just curious as the thread seems to be winding down. > > -XT A study of Canadian mammals I read a number of years ago stated that field observations had identified only one strict herbivore, the groundhog (_Marmota monax_) and one strict carnivore, the polar bear (_Ursus maritimus_). Even caribou were observed to chomp up migrating lemmings! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364/40 "2006-05-18T20:47:29Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > A study of Canadian mammals I read a number of years ago stated that field observations had identified only one strict herbivore, the groundhog (_Marmota monax_) and one strict carnivore, the polar bear (_Ursus maritimus_). Even caribou were observed to chomp up migrating lemmings! :eek: Quite a number of herbivores that will not otherwise eat animal parts (well, vertebrate parts - anything that eats plants also accidentally eat insects 😃 ) will eat antlers, bones, turtle shells, bird guano, etc. (and also putty and cement) when their diet is deficient in minerals, particularily phosphorus and to a lesser extent calcium. This is known as osteophagia (bone-eating), or, more colloquially, bone hunger or bone appetite. Deer, sheep, cattle and other “strict” herbivores have been observed to kill small animals to obtain the bones (nestling birds are frequently mentioned in this connection). They will not, however, eat the meat unless they are starving. JRB [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-naturally-carni-herbi-omnivores/352364.md?page=3)