# Humans were naturally herbivores? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 10, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407 "2004-03-10T02:41:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/41 "2004-03-13T01:51:49Z")
Herbivore doesn’t equal vegetarian anyway. Herbivores eat plants pretty willy-nilly, while vegetatians eat plants and take care to exclude animal stuff from their diets. Polar bears will eat plant stuff with gusto, as witnessed by the people up north (america) who’s dumps are famously raided by polar bears. They’ll also gobble berries and such if available, just like their Grizzly cousins. So, there are no pure carnivores. At least not big ones. Carnivores don’t get very old, do they? As far as I know, many vegetarians do get quite old. Herbivores (elephants, gorillas, etc) do get quite old. Turtles. My doctor, not a nutritionist, says that if you’re really going to choose just one it should be vegetable plus Beano. 😉 Your gut has trouble with only meat. Too gooey, she say’s. She advises following the pyramid. And be honest. Really lean meat is generally pretty nasty, taste-wise. Even when cooked rare. That’s why you gotta add flavoring (steak sauce and such). ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/42 "2004-03-13T02:05:43Z")
> [@Slartibartfastt](#): > > Where do you get the idea that anybody in the livestock industry has a “revolting disregard for life”. Last I checked dead animals are worthless 😃 > > Its very simple, feedlots exist to make money and you make the most money on healthy stress free animals. All your typical feedlot steer has to do is eat and sleep, that is hardly a bad life. Sure the end result is death but if it wasnt for the meat industry the animal would never have been alive anyway. That’s all meat industry propoganda, my friend. _Live_ animals are worthless to the industry. They are a cost. They become valuable only when they are dead and chopped up into smaller pieces. And no money or effort is expended for the comfort of the animals in feed lots. They only eat and sleep because that’s all there is to do. The dairy industry, as a whole, has learned that it is profitable to try to keep the cows healthy and happy. ---
**Author:** ![BoringDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@BoringDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoringDad)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/43 "2004-03-13T02:23:15Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > That’s all meat industry propoganda, my friend. > _Live_ animals are worthless to the industry. They are a cost. They become valuable only when they are dead and chopped up into smaller pieces. > And no money or effort is expended for the comfort of the animals in feed lots. They only eat and sleep because that’s all there is to do. Agree with you on this. The conditions in “modern” factory pig and turkey farms are just horrendous. Pigs in steel pens, barely room to turn around, food and sanitation based only on what the law requires and how to get them to grow as fast as possible. A big problem in turkey operations is keeping the turkeys from attacking and killing each other. They are so crammed in that fights break out all the time, even when there is no one around to bet on them. Unless some mobster turkeys have a racket going where they incite a fight and then act as the bookie. But that’s just rumor, the fighting part is true. Sadly, even though I know how they treat pigs… I still eat them. As I gnaw on my juicy 1 1/2 thick still pink in the middle pork chop cooked about 30 degrees below the safe recommended temp, I hypocritically wish that somehow I could buy pork from an animal that led a more normal life. ---
**Author:** ![Slartibartfastt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5e9695/32.png) [@Slartibartfastt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slartibartfastt)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/44 "2004-03-13T04:07:28Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > That’s all meat industry propoganda, my friend. > _Live_ animals are worthless to the industry. They are a cost. They become valuable only when they are dead and chopped up into smaller pieces. > And no money or effort is expended for the comfort of the animals in feed lots. They only eat and sleep because that’s all there is to do. > The dairy industry, as a whole, has learned that it is profitable to try to keep the cows healthy and happy. When I said dead animals are worthless I meant ones that died from illness or neglect before they made it to the food chain. Actually they are worse than that since all the money you put into growing the animal is down the drain. I think you do not understand the economics of feeding cattle, it is all about cost of gain. Feeding cattle is costly so you want to do in a way that you get the best return on investment just like any other business. Sick animals do not gain weight and stressed animals do not gain weight effeciently. Just like dairy it is in the feedlots best interest to have healthy and happy cattle. Also you get higher prices for prime and choice meat, guess where that comes from? Healthy and happy animals. It sounds like you have been reading PETA propoganda. PS I am in the livestock industry, not in the finish feeding part of it but I do have some idea of how it works. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/45 "2004-03-13T05:28:17Z")
No, **Slartibartfastt** , no PETA here. Too big a cheeseburger fan, I’m afraid. I can tell you’re not in the “finish feeding” part of the industry. Go stand at the input end of a slaughterhouse someday, if they’ll let you, and go inside and see what they do there, and to what they do it. Go out to a feed lot and look around and watch them load. These ain’t happy steer out grazing in pastures in the shade. Those “hills” you see are piles of cow shit. Be prepared to be off beef for a day or two. Then go to a chicken or a turkey farm, as mentioned by **BoringDad**. Imagine the “pecking order” among ten thousand fowl, crowded together. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/46 "2004-03-13T15:10:14Z")
By happy, I think that not being overly stressed is what you want especially before their killed. Being to stressed will affect the quality of the meat. They are dumb animals. They don’t care about the aesthetics of their enviroment. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/47 "2004-03-13T15:13:01Z")
:eek: “their” should be “they’re” “to” should be “too” ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/48 "2004-03-13T15:53:56Z")
Part of the OP’s problem here is that it tries to be rational. The vegetarian’s point of view, as expressed in the OP is that humans are designed to be vegetarian, and that we do not digest meat efficiently, therefore we should not eat meat. This is patently wrong, as has been pointed out at great length by others in this thread. Canines, HCL, pepsin, and ape behavior, yeah, it’s all evidence to the contrary. And yes, bugs are meat. However, it has been my experience that the sort of vegetarian who wants to convince me to give up meat is not a rational person. Most of the folks of this sort that I have met tend to be vegans or PETA members, and they tend to support their own viewpoints with the same kind of berserk, stubborn faith one normally associates with wild-eyed religiosity. I can recall a great many arguments I’ve had with PETA members. One in particular had to do with vivisection – **"We can learn nothing useful by cutting up animals. It’s pure cruelty, nothing more."** _“Wrong. We have learned huge amounts by animal testing, in carefully controlled environments, taking the differences between animals and humans into account. True, this is not always done, and some animal testing is wasted, or simply done to protect some scientists’ grants, but it is not as useless as you would have us believe.”_ **"Well, maybe… but the same thing would have been learned if they’d simply used computer simulations."** _“How would they get the information to program the simulations without actually cutting up some animals first?”_ **"Technology has reached a point where it could be done."** _“You mean we have technology so good we can program computers with data we don’t have yet? How do we know what effect a drug will have on a computer simulation of an ape or human if we don’t know what it will do to a real one?”_ **"You’re being obstructionist. I’m not going to talk to you any more."** I have concluded that vegetarianism is a religion for some people, and that trying to discuss it with them rationally is no more productive than discussing religion with a zealot. ---
**Author:** ![Slartibartfastt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5e9695/32.png) [@Slartibartfastt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slartibartfastt)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/49 "2004-03-13T18:50:56Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > No, **Slartibartfastt** , no PETA here. Too big a cheeseburger fan, I’m afraid. > I can tell you’re not in the “finish feeding” part of the industry. > Go stand at the input end of a slaughterhouse someday, if they’ll let you, and go inside and see what they do there, and to what they do it. Go out to a feed lot and look around and watch them load. These ain’t happy steer out grazing in pastures in the shade. Those “hills” you see are piles of cow shit. > Be prepared to be off beef for a day or two. > Then go to a chicken or a turkey farm, as mentioned by **BoringDad**. Imagine the “pecking order” among ten thousand fowl, crowded together. Been there done that, live within 2 miles of a commercial feedlot and have had my own cattle there at times. I go out to my own small feedlot every day, I fed about 500 head this winter. Those hills of cowshit you seem to think are bad are in those pens on purpose, they dry out faster after a rain or snow and give the cattle someplace dry to lay down and the act as windbreaks on cold windy days to let cattle get out of the wind. If you havent noticed the hills are dried piles that were put there the summer before they are not several feet of wet shit. Just one of the ways to put less stress on animals so they perform better. I dont understand your “watch them load” comment, do you think it would be better to have old fashion cattle drives down the interstate or are you commenting on the fact that sometimes you need to prod them along to get cattle on to the truck. They kill cattle to make beef at a slaughter house, what makes you think that would surprise me? Is it something I would want to watch before lunch each day? Probably not but what they do and how they do are not a big secert. I will admit I know less about chicken or turkey producing but all my comments have been about the cattle part of the business. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/50 "2004-03-13T20:28:16Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Imagine the “pecking order” among ten thousand fowl, crowded together. Which is why they cut and trim their beaks and claws in many places. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/51 "2004-03-13T20:55:08Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Which is why they cut and trim their beaks and claws in many places. Well, that takes care of _that_ 😛 ---
**Author:** ![epepke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de0a6/32.png) [@epepke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epepke)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/52 "2004-03-14T00:16:02Z")
> [@Blornx](#): > > Humans (and apes) have forward eye placement / field of vision, which is better suited for predation. It’s also good for brachiation, so it isn’t conclusive. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/53 "2004-03-14T00:43:45Z")
> [@epepke](#): > > It’s also good for brachiation, so it isn’t conclusive. For those as ignorant as I am (was), From m-w; > [@](#): > > Main Entry: bra·chi·ate > Pronunciation: 'brA-kE-"At > Function: intransitive verb > Inflected Form(s): -at·ed; -at·ing > : to progress by swinging from one hold to another by the arms \ Hmmm. Sounds akin to swinging through the trees. 😉 That proves it, though. Humans are _not_ herbivores, and can freely eat bugs. ---
**Author:** ![gbrohman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3be4f8/32.png) [@gbrohman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gbrohman)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/54 "2004-03-14T15:35:57Z")
> [@Dogface](#): > > Hardly. It has to do with which hominids hunt and which don’t. My loving Daughter gave me a very nice bumper sticker upon my return from an out of state hunting trip with an empty bag. “Vegetarian” Indian Word For “LOUSY HUNTER” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/55 "2004-03-14T20:39:38Z")
> [@BoringDad](#): > > Sadly, even though I know how they treat pigs… I still eat them. As I gnaw on my juicy 1 1/2 thick still pink in the middle pork chop cooked about 30 degrees below the safe recommended temp, I hypocritically wish that somehow I could buy pork from an animal that led a more normal life. You can. The big name is [Niman Ranch](http://www.nimanranch.com), but there are also a growing number of smaller suppliers such as [Thundering Hooves](http://www.thunderinghooves.net) that provide meat that was raised the old-fashioned way. If you contact a place like Slow Food, they may be able to provide more recommendations. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/56 "2004-03-14T21:44:52Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > You also have to remember that, despite our images of early humans taking down mammoths and other large mammals, that meat is hard to come by in a hunter-gatherer diet. It is available only in small quantities; the gatherers come up with most of the food the groups eat. > > We should, if we were to eat a paleolithic diet, eat few starchy foods, lots of vegetables, and few meats, but we should eat some. (No dairy, either. Roving groups of early humans did not find and milk the wild cows on the savannah.) Nowadays, though, we have a lot of other sources for nutrition. So eat what you like, limit your intake of fatty foods, and eat more leafy greens because they’re good for you like mama always said. More like this- plenty of nuts, seeds, roots, fruits, berries, insects (including grubs), slow small animals (eggs, lizards, baby birds, etc), and an occasional gorging of huge amounts of lightly cooked meat. I did not claw my way to the top of the food chain just to eat broccoli! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/57 "2004-03-14T21:59:20Z")
PBS says that cave folks often stole meat (and bones, for marrow) from better, but smaller or fewer, hunters. Sometimes, though, a BIG kitty would happen along… Yep, we share with male lions a long history of scavenging. 🙂 Am I in the wrong era? ---
**Author:** ![BoringDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@BoringDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoringDad)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/58 "2004-03-14T23:01:07Z")
> [@Hunter Hawk](#): > > You can. The big name is [Niman Ranch](http://www.nimanranch.com), but there are also a growing number of smaller suppliers such as [Thundering Hooves](http://www.thunderinghooves.net) that provide meat that was raised the old-fashioned way. If you contact a place like Slow Food, they may be able to provide more recommendations. Hmm, I’ll have to look into that… ThunderingHoovse, oh yeah, saw that in an article… don’t deliver here… Hmm. Niman’s. Oh! They sell online!.. Hmmmm… Yow! $10 a pound for pork loin?!?!? Looks like I’ll have to continue with my hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Kempis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kempis/32/19248_2.png) [@Kempis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kempis)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/59 "2004-03-14T23:42:01Z")
I think the OP and the whole Paleolithic diet idea are assuming that if we eat what we are genetically designed to eat we will live longer and healthier. I was always told that people died younger in the past, on average. -k ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407/60 "2004-03-15T01:10:13Z")
They died earlier for a million different reasons. Try these for a start. Lack of medicine. Lack of understanding of the human body. Lack of understanding of nutrition. Lack of availability of nutritious foods all year long. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humans-were-naturally-herbivores/233407.md?page=4)