# Humor me. Why is State funded Education Universal in the US but State funded Health Care is not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2013, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912 "2013-05-21T10:02:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/61 "2013-05-22T16:47:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You mean like operations for cancer and heart by-pass surgery? That’s what I was specifically referring to. Stuff that requires a doctors visit leading to specialist referral and then surgery. All paid by Medicaid. That’s what it’s for. People with no discernible wealth. Poor people. I can close one eye and tell you that’s not true. It’s the one it wasn’t cost effective to refer me to a retinal surgeon for, and I’ve been blind in for the last decade. Still, the odds are somewhere between 60% and 85% that the other eye will stay good, so I’ve got that going for me anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/62 "2013-05-22T18:26:57Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Well, there is a persistent movement to dismantle out public schools, as well. I have not heard a peep from that crowd since Newtown. Now have come out of Newtown and Oklahoma contradicts the notion that teachers are selfish, money-grubbing, socialist, slackers who see our kids as a meal ticket and don’t really give a shit about their welfare. Fucking mainstream media trying to make a teacher shielding her students from harm (either by getting shot to death or bearing the brunt of flying debris. They were obviously looking for disability benefits or trying to collect on that fat life insurance benefit. I dare any politician to try and bad-mouth teachers right now. We have had more heroes coming out of the teachers colleges than MBA programs in recent years and despite all the job creation the MBAs have been engaging in. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/63 "2013-05-22T18:33:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You mean like operations for cancer and heart by-pass surgery? That’s what I was specifically referring to. Stuff that requires a doctors visit leading to specialist referral and then surgery. All paid by Medicaid. That’s what it’s for. People with no discernible wealth. Poor people. I’m going to conclude at this point that you learned everything you know about Medicaid from watching _General Hospital_. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/64 "2013-05-22T18:42:03Z")
Who is trying to dismantle the public school system? I’ve heard of the Libertarian Party wanting to do so, but I haven’t heard of mainstream political figures at the state or federal level wanting to do that. What conservatives do want to do is create more accountability and competition while not continually throwing ever more money at public schools with no return on that extra investment. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/65 "2013-05-22T18:53:49Z")
Plus, look closer at the ‘public’ education system. Instead of taxing everybody the same and then divvying up the dollars between the number of students, regardless of location, they keep it within the district. So rich kids go to schools with computer labs and professional quality sports programs and arts programs, and poor neighbourhood schools are so underfunded as to be tragic. Start out middle class and you really have an enormous advantage, educationally. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/66 "2013-05-22T18:56:36Z")
Poor neighborhood schools are hardly underfunded, just less funded than schools in better neighorhoods. The US spends a lot more on education per student than most countries do. [http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu\_spe\_per\_sec\_sch\_stu-spending-per-secondary-school-student](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_spe_per_sec_sch_stu-spending-per-secondary-school-student) In order to determine if poor neighborhood schools are actually underfunded, I’d first want to know if they get more or less money than schools in Japan or Sweden. If they get more or about the same, the funding isn’t the issue. Another study: [http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator\_ifn.asp](http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_ifn.asp) The US spends 35% more per student than the average OECD country. So how much less funding to poorer neighborhood schools get? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/67 "2013-05-22T19:24:38Z")
Those of us of a certain age have probably seen the hospital bills from our birth, which run to about $5 and change. For most people if anything really complicated happened to you, you died. Which is cheap. Since people didn’t go broke from medical bills, even when uninsured, there was less call for it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/68 "2013-05-22T19:29:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m going to conclude at this point that you learned everything you know about Medicaid from watching _General Hospital_. I learned it from people on it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/69 "2013-05-22T19:32:20Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Plus, look closer at the ‘public’ education system. Instead of taxing everybody the same and then divvying up the dollars between the number of students, regardless of location, they keep it within the district. So rich kids go to schools with computer labs and professional quality sports programs and arts programs, and poor neighbourhood schools are so underfunded as to be tragic. Start out middle class and you really have an enormous advantage, educationally. Actually in a lot of states, California and New Jersey for two, the courts require that school money go to the state and get divvied up somewhat more equally. In California the allocation is done according to a complex formula partially based on how much was being collected at the time of the decision so my district, which has gotten richer since then, gets screwed relative to another local district which gets more. It will never change since LA does well and they’ve got the votes. Rich districts do get more money from fund raising, but they mostly do better due to having an involved population. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/70 "2013-05-22T19:32:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yes, they were treated by private healthcare covered by Medicaid. Your point? That they were treated by the private US healthcare system. Medicaid isn’t healthcare, it is government funded insurance for pregnant women or dependent children who live below 133% FPL or someone living in a nursing home with less than $2k to their name. This is a small, small segment of the poor. Qualifying for Medicaid (currently) is quite restrictive, ERGO access to Medicaid funding (currently) is quite restrictive. Despite your insistence in just hand waving this away, all the while repeatedly comparing Medicaid, a _government run health insurance program_, with the UK and Canadian _healthcare systems_ - the two most socialized healthcare systems of all the UHC countries. Let me spell this out again: You are comparing two different government run programs. One is a government run _healthcare delivery system_, accessed by virtue of citizenship, the other is government run\* health insurance\* for a select group of the qualified poor that enables access to the _private US healthcare delivery system._ > [@Magiver](#): > > yes. Yes what? Repeating the question: Are you saying people on Medicaid have equal access and outcomes compared to the privately insured in the US? Are you saying that people on Medicaid receive higher quality of care and have better health outcomes compared to other UHC countries? _Despite the fact that the US system and population as a whole scores much lower on many measures when compared to other OECD countries._ > [@Magiver](#): > > I can go to 10 different extended hours walk-in medical centers in my area. These are not hospitals or private practice doctors but on-demand doctor centers. The greatest distance between any of them is 11 miles which puts anybody in my metro area within a few miles of one of them. There are 6 centers in my area with MRI’s. Scratch your head all you want that kind of availability doesn’t exist in Canada or the UK. So you can quote all the waiting statistics you want about people waiting for their private doctors in the but they have options. > > Now lets look at the waiting time in the UK. It’s on the rise. [Between 2010 and 2011](http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/apr/19/david-cameron-pressure-nhs-waiting-times) the average time for a knee operation went from 88.9 days to 99.2 days. Hernia operations went from 70.4 to 78.3 days. Gallstone removal time increased by 7.4 days. > > [Diagnostic test wait time increase](http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/11/nhs-waiting-lists-data): > Measure: Number of patients waiting more than six weeks for diagnostic tests > Change year-on-year: +364% (by patient numbers), or +330% (by percentage of patients affected) (May 2011 versus May 2010) > > Treatment within 18 weeks increase: > Measure: Number of patient waiting over 18 weeks for hospital treatment > Change year-on-year: +11% (by patient numbers), or +24% (by percentage of patients affected) (April 2011 versus April 2010) > > Cancer: treatment within 31 days > Measure: Number of cancer patients not treated within 31 days. > Change year-on-year: +15% (by patient numbers), or +10% (by percentage of patients affected) (Jan-Mar 2011 versus Jan-Mar 2010) So this in your mind backs up your assertion: > [@Magiver](#): > > the poor have medicaid which is vastly superior to universal health care in other countries for serious health issues. (Despite health insurance =/= healthcare) The metric you use that led you to this conclusion about the ‘superiority of Medicaid’ compared UHC in other countries is the wait times for non-emergency care in the UK reported by the Guardian news service? I guess that’s a step up from your personal anecdotes. You seem pretty stuck on using the UK and Canada as examples of UHC, when they are the most socialized\* healthcare systems\* compared to many other UHC countries who may use socialized _health insurance_ or public/private funded _health insurance_ to provide UHC. News flash: UHC can be achieved without completely socializing the healthcare system. Despited the common strawman you and many others of your ilk like to trot out. I guess I am more swayed by quality measures and outcomes reported by credible peer reviewed sources when it comes to evaluating Medicaid. Rather than wait times for non-emergency issues that don’t result in poorer health outcomes delivered by _a government run healthcare system_ the US is highly unlikely to ever adopt. As\*\* Adahar\*\* pointed out Medicaid has some serious issues, even when access is increased. I won’t go as far to say healthcare _access_ has nothing to do with health, but the evidence I’ve encountered is that access determines 15%-20% of health. Socioeconomic status (SES), where you live and lifestyle behavior determine much of the rest. **TL;DR** > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m going to conclude at this point that you learned everything you know about Medicaid from watching _General Hospital_. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/71 "2013-05-22T19:37:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Who is trying to dismantle the public school system? I’ve heard of the Libertarian Party wanting to do so, but I haven’t heard of mainstream political figures at the state or federal level wanting to do that. > > What conservatives do want to do is create more accountability and competition while not continually throwing ever more money at public schools with no return on that extra investment. No one says they want to dismantle public schools, but the model is to give vouchers for private schools, let people with more money supplement them for better and more selective schools, leaving the public schools to kids who no one wants, for kids too poor to attend better private schools which cost more than vouchers cover, or for kids with uninvolved parents. Test schools and outcomes for public schools will plummet, and conservatives will proudly say that they were right, the government can’t do anything right. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/72 "2013-05-22T19:43:03Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > That private-insured people have exactly the same propensity (or lack of propensity) to “freeload” as public-insured people do, seems to be beyond the grasp of right-wingers. Or, more likely, it really is a matter of morality: People without money don’t deserve the things money can buy. We have a population covered by UHC, the elderly, and they use more healthcare than average. It must be because they are freeloaders - I can’t think of any other explanation! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/73 "2013-05-22T20:00:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Poor neighborhood schools are hardly underfunded, just less funded than schools in better neighorhoods. The US spends a lot more on education per student than most countries do. Yes, but that is not an apples and oranges comparison. A significant amount of US school funding goes towards ridiculous things like football stadia that other countries don’t fund at all. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/74 "2013-05-22T20:56:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > All the other answers given so far are wrong. Interesting, but wrong. It’s not a deliberate decision anyone has made; the public education systems and the private healthcare systems developed along different tracks because they aren’t really related entities. You have to bear in mind that the US never suffered much from WWII, so it never developed the [post-war consensus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-war_consensus) and similar political third rails that led to the creation of the European welfare states. Given that Canada was in essentially the same position as the USA, having fought in the war without suffering substantial direct damage, but embarked upon a public health insurance system anyway, there’s something missing in this answer. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/75 "2013-05-22T20:58:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes, but that is not an apples and oranges comparison. A significant amount of US school funding goes towards ridiculous things like football stadia that other countries don’t fund at all. I don’t believe this is true, and challenge you to prove otherwise. I’m not sure what “significant” constitutes, but I am betting that the overwhelming majority of U.S. education funding goes to things other than sports stadiums. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/76 "2013-05-22T21:45:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Who is trying to dismantle the public school system? I’ve heard of the Libertarian Party wanting to do so, but I haven’t heard of mainstream political figures at the state or federal level wanting to do that. > > What conservatives do want to do is create more accountability and competition while not continually throwing ever more money at public schools with no return on that extra investment. What conservatives support (beyond the charter schools that Obama supports and the scholarship system that we have in DC) seems poorly designed to improve educational outcomes but seems fairly well designed to dismantle the public school system. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/77 "2013-05-22T21:57:27Z")
Seriously guys, **The Hamster King** already gave the answer: During WWII there was a labor shortage which was causing wages and prices to rise. Fearing inflation the federal government imposed wage and price controls, but the labour unions fought to exclude health insurance. As a result employers began offering health insurance as an incentive and it stuck. In 2000 nearly 70% of Americans got their health insurance through their employer, so what incentive was there for change? By 2011 that number was down to about 45% with about 25% getting it from the government. What’s funny is that Americans don’t seem to notice/care that their premiums keep going up. In Canada, the federal and provincial governments have to vote to increase health care funding. That usually means an increase in taxes. People don’t like paying more taxes, so the government is restricted in their funding options, so health costs are kept in check. Eventually people get pissed enough that health care sucks so they allow a tax increase. In 2004 Ontario was having a hard time funding its health care system, so they introduced the Ontario Health Premium (ie a tax). Take a look at [this chart](http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/tax/healthpremium/rates.html) to see how it was funded, you’ll notice it’s not ‘tax the rich.’ Everyone over $21,000 a year paid starting at $600 a year. After that it works out to about an additional 1% income tax. There isn’t anything stopping the steady creep of premiums, so there is nothing keeping health costs in check. If the cost of an MRI goes up, the premiums go up, allowing the cost of an MRI to go up and so on and son on. If you want to blame someone, start with FDR and the labour unions. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/78 "2013-05-22T22:33:11Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Given that Canada was in essentially the same position as the USA, having fought in the war without suffering substantial direct damage, but embarked upon a public health insurance system anyway, there’s something missing in this answer. What’s missing is the money spent on being the world’s policeman. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/79 "2013-05-22T22:49:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’ve been about as poor as you could possibly be, and **Magiver** couldn’t be more wrong. Has McG ever been right about anything? Even by chance at this point you would think that after so many posts he’d be on the money about something, it almost seems like… ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/80 "2013-05-22T23:00:50Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Given that Canada was in essentially the same position as the USA, having fought in the war without suffering substantial direct damage, but embarked upon a public health insurance system anyway, there’s something missing in this answer. What’s missing is that Canada didn’t have the wage and price controls implemented with the loophole which created the incentive for companies to offer health insurance as an employment benefit. In other words, it all comes down to an accident of history, nothing more. Just a few words on a legislative bill with totally unforeseen consequences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912.md?page=5)