# Humor me. Why is State funded Education Universal in the US but State funded Health Care is not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2013, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912 "2013-05-21T10:02:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![6079smithW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/db5fbb/32.png) [@6079smithW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6079smithW)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/81 "2013-05-22T23:14:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Or I could answer a question with a question: if we have state funded schools, and we should have state funded hospitals, then why shouldn’t we also have state-funded grocery stores? People need to eat, do they not? Finally, an explanation why Obama invented the food stamp! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/82 "2013-05-23T02:36:10Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Let me spell this out again: You are comparing two different government run programs. One is a government run _healthcare delivery system_, accessed by virtue of citizenship, the other is government run\* health insurance\* for a select group of the qualified poor that enables access to the _private US healthcare delivery system._ Yes EverwonderWhy, I’m comparing government run programs between the US and other countries. I specified Medicaid which is set up for poor people. > [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Yes what? Repeating the question: Are you saying people on Medicaid have equal access and outcomes compared to the privately insured in the US? Are you saying that people on Medicaid receive higher quality of care and have better health outcomes compared to other UHC countries? _Despite the fact that the US system and population as a whole scores much lower on many measures when compared to other OECD countries._ I’m saying the care of the people I know on Medicaid was faster and more complete than what is received in Canada or the UK. I cited serious delays involving various medical treatments. They are on the increase in the UK. > [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > The metric you use that led you to this conclusion about the ‘superiority of Medicaid’ compared UHC in other countries is the wait times for non-emergency care in the UK reported by the Guardian news service? yes, that’s the metric I used. > [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > I guess that’s a step up from your personal anecdotes. You seem pretty stuck on using the UK and Canada as examples of UHC, when they are the most socialized\* healthcare systems\* compared to many other UHC countries who may use socialized _health insurance_ or public/private funded _health insurance_ to provide UHC. News flash: UHC can be achieved without completely socializing the healthcare system. Despited the common strawman you and many others of your ilk like to trot out. Yes EverwondWhy, I’m “stuck” on the problems of the most socialized healthcare systems when compared to my own. If you’re going to compare private versus socialized systems then you see the problems of both by comparing both ends of the spectrum. Medicaid and Medicare show how the United States handles tax funded healthcare. The people I know in the United States received life threatening treatment in a timely manner and are doing well. The people I know in Canada were not treated in a timely manner and their health deteriorated because of it. Yes it’s anecdotal but I gave cites. Here’s one for Canada dealing with the health problem of the person in question. [http://www.wolterskluwer.com/Press/Latest-News/Pages/Press%20Releases/2012/pr6Aug2012a.aspx#.UZ18k5xK3Rk](http://www.wolterskluwer.com/Press/Latest-News/Pages/Press%20Releases/2012/pr6Aug2012a.aspx#.UZ18k5xK3Rk) Now I can’t do anything about the anecdotal side of it beyond the cites given but I can again point out that Canadians who don’t want to wait can go to the United States. I will also point out that such an option will disappear if we adopt a Canadian system. Thus the comparison and why. > [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > I guess I am more swayed by quality measures and outcomes reported by credible peer reviewed sources when it comes to evaluating Medicaid. Rather than wait times for non-emergency issues that don’t result in poorer health outcomes delivered by _a government run healthcare system_ the US is highly unlikely to ever adopt. As\*\* Adahar\*\* pointed out Medicaid has some serious issues, even when access is increased. I won’t go as far to say healthcare _access_ has nothing to do with health, but the evidence I’ve encountered is that access determines 15%-20% of health. Socioeconomic status (SES), where you live and lifestyle behavior determine much of the rest. > > **TL;DR** I’m more swayed by the ability to get treatment when I need it because I have more options with the medical facilities around me. I’m not hugely interested in losing the quality of care based on a more efficient medical system. I’m also not interested in lowering my medical coverage in an attempt to raise others. I’d rather work on raising others. It should be interesting to see the public’s reaction to being forced into paying for insurance or the alternate tax penalty. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/83 "2013-05-23T05:02:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes EverwonderWhy, I’m comparing government run programs between the US and other countries. I specified Medicaid which is set up for poor people. Actually NO, you are comparing government run insurance to government run health care delivery systems. Not the same thing. Not the same type of government program. Apples and oranges. Health insurance is not healthcare. This is becoming quite circular. You are arguing against a strawman of your own creation. If you were actually interested in comparing _tax funded health insurance_ that pays for healthcare delivered in a _relatively private system_ like in the US, I would suggest looking at Germany, Switzerland (though their insurance is mostly private with government premium support for low income), France, Australia, etc. Just as baffling, you seem to think that Urgent Care does not exist outside the US. Medicaid is not accepted by all the same healthcare providers that accept private insurance, Medicaid does not provide the same coverage as private insurance, the reimbursement rate is much lower than private insurance, the people who qualify for Medicaid are a small, small, segment of the poor, Medicaid has waitlists, and [Medicaid patients do not achieve the same quality benchmarks compared to patients with commercial coverage.](http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=209136) Now with the expansion many states are trying to revamp their Medicaid programs, so improvement is in the works and certainly possible, but stating that the current Medicaid system provides the same access and quality of care as private insurance? That Medicaid is FAR FAR superior to UHC in other countries? Delusional. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/84 "2013-05-23T06:18:24Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Actually NO, you are comparing government run insurance to government run health care delivery systems. Not the same thing. Not the same type of government program. Apples and oranges. No program is the same program between countries. I don’t understand your obsession with this pointless line. I compared the government program we have in the US (for the poor) against the Canadian and UK systems. There is no strawman involved in my comparison. I said I would prefer it those systems because it has been faster in response to life threatening situations for those around me. I cited the problems within those systems. I would prefer my personal insurance policy to Medicare (and by extant, Canadian and United Kingdom systems). > [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > If you were actually interested in comparing _tax funded health insurance_ that pays for healthcare delivered in a _relatively private system_ like in the US, I would suggest looking at Germany, Switzerland (though their insurance is mostly private with government premium support for low income), France, Australia, etc. you mean like the system that was just enacted a couple of years ago in the United States? > [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Just as baffling, you seem to think that Urgent Care does not exist outside the US. and yet there are still considerable diagnostic delays (in addition to treatment delays) in the UK. > [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Medicaid is not accepted by all the same healthcare providers that accept private insurance, Medicaid does not provide the same coverage as private insurance, the reimbursement rate is much lower than private insurance, the people who qualify for Medicaid are a small, small, segment of the poor, Medicaid has waitlists, and [Medicaid patients do not achieve the same quality benchmarks compared to patients with commercial coverage.](http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=209136) wow, who would have guessed private insurance is better than government insurance. > [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Now with the expansion many states are trying to revamp their Medicaid programs, so improvement is in the works and certainly possible, but stating that the current Medicaid system provides the same access and quality of care as private insurance? That Medicaid is FAR FAR superior to UHC in other countries? Delusional. I never said Medicaid was better than private insurance. I said it was better than Canadian and United Kingdom health care, specifically for life threatening conditions. You will note I was very specific on how I worded that. BTW, you keep talking about government run health care delivery systems as if that isn’t an insurance system. That’s a semantic argument when the government determines what is delivered and when. And if you can’t get to the care in a timely manner then it’s a government run health care rationing system. It all comes down to money. If Canada and the UK taxed at the rate we spend money on health care in the US I would expect the same level of care available to the privately insured. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/85 "2013-05-23T07:34:58Z")
Magiver, you do realise that in effect you are saying that universal health care is a good thing? i.e. those who can afford to pay are taxed (directly or indirectly) in order to support a system and infrastructure that everyone can access. Of course in the USA not everyone can access it, and the quality of that access is variable to say the least. It may be that the shiny loveliness of your hospitals are put at the disposal of your very poor because the middle ground of working poor and middle classes remain unable financially to access them at all. If I have a choice then I’d rather be on a waiting list for a hip replacement and have my waiting time vary according to medical need then to _NEVER_ be on the list in the first place. (which is a reality for millions in the USA who don’t qualify for medicare) One specific question. How do I, as a poor person in the USA, access medicare? I assume I’m just automatically enrolled with no administration and no fees at the point of healthcare delivery…correct? I just roll up at the hospital with my complaint, get my treatment, go home. No bills and no paperwork…correct? ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/86 "2013-05-23T08:48:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > you mean like the system that was just enacted a couple of years ago in the United States? Yes, actually the Swiss system is very much like the ACA, insurance mandate and all. France and Australia use socialized insurance with complementary/supplemental private insurance that picks up the patient cost sharing portion (with government funded patient cost-sharing for the poor), which funds healthcare delivered in a _relatively private healthcare delivery system_. You keep insisting that UHC be defined by two countries with government run healthcare delivery systems, despite ample evidence that other countries with UHC are able to deliver it with a mostly private insurance system (such as Switzerland) or a combination of public and private funding in a relatively _private healthcare delivery system_. > [@Magiver](#): > > I never said Medicaid was better than private insurance. I said it was better than Canadian and United Kingdom health care, specifically for life threatening conditions. You will note I was very specific on how I worded that. Actually no, as I already noted your shifting of the goal posts on page 1 of this thread, you first said: > [@Magiver](#): > > the poor have medicaid which is vastly superior to universal health care in other countries for serious health issues. Which you then walked back to: > [@Magiver](#): > > The poor in the US have medicaid which is far superior to Canadian or British UHC. FAR FAR superior. Which you then again walked back to: “Medicaid being FAR FAR superior for life threatening treatments compared to Canada and the UK.” Citing anecdotal evidence and wait times for elective non-emergency care. And when I asked this: > [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Do you think Medicaid patients have equal access and outcomes compared to privately insured patients in the US? If no, then how can Medicaid be “vastly superior to UHC in other countries”, when the US population/system doesn’t rate much better than most other OECD countries with UHC? You responded with: > [@Magiver](#): > > yes Along with this little gem: > [@Magiver](#): > > I can go to 10 different extended hours walk-in medical centers in my area. These are not hospitals or private practice doctors but on-demand doctor centers. The greatest distance between any of them is 11 miles which puts anybody in my metro area within a few miles of one of them. Arguing something no one is disputing. Nor anything that solely exists in the US. To which I responded with: > [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Yes what? Repeating the question: Are you saying people on Medicaid have equal access and outcomes compared to the privately insured in the US? Are you saying that people on Medicaid receive higher quality of care and have better health outcomes compared to other UHC countries? _Despite the fact that the US system and population as a whole scores much lower on many measures when compared to other OECD countries._ To which you responded with: > [@Magiver](#): > > I’m saying the care of the people I know on Medicaid was faster and more complete than what is received in Canada or the UK. Yet again, skirting the question. Along with your ignorant insistence that all UHC is the Canadian and UK systems and the only metric of quality measure defined by wait times of non-emergency/elective care. Backed up by your anecdotes. > [@Magiver](#): > > BTW, you keep talking about government run health care delivery systems as if that isn’t an insurance system. That’s a semantic argument when the government determines what is delivered and when. Wow, you are finally catching on! Socialized healthcare is when the government owns the means of production - that would entail government ownership of the healthcare facilities, government employment of physicians and nurses, as well as government being the sole payer. Very, very few healthcare delivery systems operate that way outside of the VA here in the US or (relatively close) in Canada and the UK. In many countries hospitals and clinics are not owned by the state, physicians and nurses are not government employees and funding is provided by multiple different payers between public insurance, private insurance and patient out-of-pocket. It’s not a semantic argument when other players exist in the system, outside of the government, who also determine coverage and care. However, you are right, this discussion is proving quite pointless in carrying on with someone with incredibly poor reading comprehension skills and a hefty dose of willful ignorance when it comes to the varied health care delivery systems in other OECD countries, which somehow manage to provide UHC outside of the socialized model you keep yammering on about. Which all started with this: > [@Magiver](#): > > **It’s not the poor who have problems** , it’s the near-poor and people with pre-existing conditions. Good grief! ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/87 "2013-05-23T09:23:02Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > One specific question. How do I, as a poor person in the USA, access medicare? > I assume I’m just automatically enrolled with no administration and no fees at the point of healthcare delivery…correct? > I just roll up at the hospital with my complaint, get my treatment, go home. No bills and no paperwork…correct? Nope. Lots of paperwork and financial documentation required, along with cost-sharing if you are not absolutely destitute. Despite the fact that you have to be already practically destitute to even qualify in the first place! [General Medicaid Requirements](http://longtermcare.gov/medicare-medicaid-more/medicaid/medicaid-eligibility/general-medicaid-requirements/) > [@](#): > > A number of states provide Medicaid to aged or disabled persons with income that is below 100 percent of the federal poverty level ($931 a month for an individual in 2012). > > For the most part, to be eligible for Medicaid you must be one of the following: > > [ul] > [li]Be age 65 or older[/li][li]Have a permanent disability as that term is defined by the Social Security Administration[/li][li]Be blind[/li][li]Be a pregnant woman[/li][li]Be a child, or the parent or caretaker of a child[/li][/ul] > > In addition you must meet certain other requirements, such as: > > [ul] > [li]Be a U.S. citizen or meet certain immigration rules[/li][li]Be a resident of the state where you apply[/li][li]Have a Social Security number[/li][/ul] [Applying for Medicaid](http://longtermcare.gov/medicare-medicaid-more/medicaid/applying-for-medicaid/) > [@](#): > > The Medicaid agency usually has 45 days to process your application. If the application requires a disability determination, the agency can take 90 days. But, it may take longer for the state to determine your eligibility if you do not provide the required documents on time. If Medicaid thinks that you are not cooperating, it can deny your application for failing to cooperate. If this happens, you may have to start your application over again once you have your documents in hand. This will delay the date you become eligible for Medicaid even longer. > > If the Medicaid agency determines that you are eligible, you will receive a letter with your date of eligibility and the amount you must pay toward the cost of your care. This could be your spenddown liability if you are eligible as medically needy, or your share of cost if you are eligible on some other basis. See the sections on “Medically Needy – Spenddown” and “Share of Cost” for more information about this. [Medicaid Benefits](http://www.medicaid.gov/Medicaid-CHIP-Program-Information/By-Topics/Benefits/Medicaid-Benefits.html) > [@](#): > > States establish and administer their own Medicaid programs and determine the type, amount, duration, and scope of services within broad federal guidelines. States are required to cover certain “mandatory benefits,” and can choose to provide other “optional benefits” through the Medicaid program. Seems to vary quite a bit by state and the “mandatory benefits” seem quite limited compared to the “optional benefits.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/88 "2013-05-23T13:14:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t believe this is true, and challenge you to prove otherwise. I’m not sure what “significant” constitutes, but I am betting that the overwhelming majority of U.S. education funding goes to things other than sports stadiums. New Jersey spends [$200 million a year on high school sports](http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/press/new_jersey/article_91e4be4c-c182-11de-b076-001cc4c03286.html). Allen, Texas, spent $60 million on _one football stadium_. The average Texas high school football coach makes [$88,000](http://www.cnbc.com/id/100001024) a year (though I think a bit of that money comes from non-public sources). My point is that all the sports spending accounts for the majority of the difference alluded to below, not necessarily that it accounts for the majority of all spending. I’m quite sure it doesn’t. [QUOTE=adaher] The US spends a lot more on education per student than most countries do. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/89 "2013-05-23T15:38:09Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Nope. Lots of paperwork and financial documentation required, along with cost-sharing if you are not absolutely destitute. Despite the fact that you have to be already practically destitute to even qualify in the first place! So it isn’t even the “very poor” who do well under medicare. It is a sub-set that have the ability to jump through the necessary administrative hoops. Compare this to any UK citizen who…turns up…gets treated…goes home…no bill. Rich/poor doesn’t even come in to it. The most admin I’ve ever had to do in an emergency room (lots of lovely football broken bones!) is give my name, address, DOB, next of kin and contact number to the receptionist. The longest I’ve had to wait for treatment is 90 minutes and the most I’ve had to pay is £0. And remember Magiver, Compared to the USA this is costing us half as much per head in state funding to cover \*everyone. \* ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/90 "2013-05-23T15:55:06Z")
For emergencies, people in the NHS system and people with no insurance whatsoever in the US get treatment. The difference is in the non-emergency treatment. How long does an NHS patient wait for various appointments and procedures vs. a Medicaid patient? Also, have a study ever been done in Britain on whether the NHS actually improves health outcomes? We’ve done such studies here on Medicare, Medicaid, and private insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/91 "2013-05-23T16:01:08Z")
Improves them over what? Virtually everyone in the UK is covered by the NHS. There’s no control group to compare them to. Life expectancy and infant mortality went up and down respectively quite considerably during the period following creation of the NHS in 1948, if that’s what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/92 "2013-05-23T16:03:37Z")
Does NHS keep track of how many people die on waiting lists, or are killed by medical errors or hospital infections? We do. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/93 "2013-05-23T16:05:20Z")
Is that a serious question? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/94 "2013-05-23T16:12:21Z")
And how do NHS’s numbers stack up compared to other systems, including our own? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/95 "2013-05-23T16:22:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Does NHS keep track of how many people die on waiting lists, or are killed by medical errors or hospital infections? We do. How many USA patients die that never even get onto a waiting list? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/96 "2013-05-23T16:33:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And how do NHS’s numbers stack up compared to other systems, including our own? [Try this](http://www.gpcwm.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/file/A-Z%20DOWNLOADS/I%20DOWNLOADS/BMA_Health_Policy_Unit_International_comparisons_of_health_outcomes_feb_2011.pdf), You’d expect that because you spend more than twice as much then your outcomes would be much better than UHC countries yes? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/97 "2013-05-23T16:42:36Z")
Do those measure actual health outcomes due to health care, or general health indicators like life expectancy, which are affected by other things? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/98 "2013-05-23T16:44:40Z")
If you read it, you’d know. Give it a try. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/99 "2013-05-23T19:33:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Do those measure actual health outcomes due to health care, or general health indicators like life expectancy, which are affected by other things? As a like-for-like comparison is not possible it considers many different dimensions and criteria. Though this is a UK paper the NHS does not come out as the best system. The one thing we know in the UK is that the NHS is not perfect. We love it and compared to the USA system it is nirvana but there is much to learn from elsewhere. If you read it with an open mind I’d be very interested in what you make of it. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912/100 "2013-05-23T19:36:22Z")
**Adaher** , I posted a country comparison of health quality indicators upthread, but you can view them again, as well as other indicators all together in this chartpack: [Multinational Comparisons of Health Systems Data, 2012](http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media/Files/Publications/In%20the%20Literature/2012/Nov/PDF_2012_OECD_chartpack.pdf). (pdf warning) Take note on the ‘Mortality Amenable to Healthcare’ on page 23, the US and the UK are pretty close there, with the more recent data showing deaths per 100,000, with the US at 96 and the UK at 83. (Neither country has anything to really brag out about there.) Or you can view more specific data here: [Health at a Glance 2011 OECD Indicators](http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/health-at-a-glance-2011_health_glance-2011-en) Or put together your own comparisons by selecting criteria like I did here: [Wait Times for Specialist Appointments (2010)](http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Topics/International-Health-Policy/Bar.aspx?ind=424) [Wait Times for Elective Surgery (2010)](http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Topics/International-Health-Policy/Bar.aspx?ind=423) [Coordination of Specialist Care (2008)](http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Topics/International-Health-Policy/Bar.aspx?ind=247) Or you can slug through the 120 page report of [International Profiles of Health Care Systems: Australia, Canada, Denmark, England, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United States](http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media/Files/Publications/Fund%20Report/2011/Nov/1562_Squires_Intl_Profiles_2011_11_10.pdf) (pdf warning). ‘Selected Health System Indicators’ for fourteen countries starts around page six. It then details how each country’s system is set up, owned, managed, financed, etc. I don’t know why people think Medicaid does not have a waitlist. [The Oregon study](http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa1212321) you refered to upthread was put together by randomly selecting people\* from the waitlist\*. (of course Medicaid benefits and administration is going to vary widely by state) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/humor-me-why-is-state-funded-education-universal-in-the-us-but-state-funded-health-care-is-not/658912.md?page=6)