Hybrid vs alternative fuel

The biggest problem with Hybrid cars, is there is the idea that they have to be fugly as hell. They would be a much more efficient solution if they were prettier. :wink:

I think vegetable oil is at the same time the most viable solution, and the most overlooked.

Anyway, seriously though, Vegetable oil powered diesel engines seem to be the best option IMO. I see more places that I can stop for recovered veggie oil than I can stop for gasoline, anywhere and everywhere in the US.

The problem I see with alternative fuel sources is that they all cause waste, and it’s a matter of transfer of waste products from one type to another, so I’m not certain how much less wasteful Hybrid cars are, because the fuel cell creation creates chemical byproducts as well in addition to the energy that is used by charging the batteries. In the case of vegetable oil, it is a waste product that we create anyway.

However, my question is, what will be the outcome of increased corn production? If Alcohol and Vegetable oil catch on, how much more corn do we need to produce past our own consumption of it in order to compensate, and what impact does that have on the environment?

A friend of mine is really pushing biodiesel. He’s a DJ and drives around in his biodiesel bus on tour promoting biodiesel. www.biotour.org

Erek

Well, hydrogen’s waste product is water…so thats not so bad, is it? As for other substances (like methane) that might be useful for fuel cells, I don’t think they really release any emissions either…though production of methane (or harvesting it from the sea floor) might also release green house type gasses I suppose.

-XT

Hydrogen, unlike hydrocarbons, is not a source of energy, in that it takes more energy to get the Hydrogen than you get by using the Hydrogen in a fuel cell-it is a form of energy storage. By converting fossil fuels to hydrogen (or burning them to generate electricity to create hydrogen) you’re shifting the source of the pollutants from tailpipes to smokestacks, which may be useful in some areas where smog is a major concern. Energetically speaking, there is no practical advantage to using hydrogen except where there is some good source of “free energy” (i.e., solar, tidal, wind) and these sites tend not to be located near major poulation centers.

As mentioned above, hydrogen powered vehicles would require extensive infrastructure to be built up, so you have the “chicken and the egg” problem. Even if you had a best case scenario, such as large city in the American Southwest with abundant wind/solar production capability, you still need to build and maintain pipelines for liquid hydrogen and hydrogen refueling stations. You don’t have to go far outside the main city before this infrastructure becomes prohibitively expensive compared to our cheap, subsidized fossil fuels. The only people who are going to drive thirty miles out of their way once a week to fill up on hydrogen are the folks who are already buying the hybrids now.

Also hydrogen takes up a lot of space, and does not have the energy density of fossil fuels such as diesel and gasoline, so while it may make sense for small city commuter cars, it makes much less sense for large trucks.

Hydrogen fuel cells are never going to make sense in many parts of the country, at least not until supply becomes so low that market forces drive the price of fossil fuels so high that it starts making economic sense to use other fuels- note I didn’t say alternative sources of energy. By that time, barring any major breakthroughs in physics, biology, or chemistry, we’ll probably be using nuclear fission for electricity and converting biomass to hydrocarbons through a process like thermal depolymerization. And IMHO, we’ll have much bigger problems on a global economic scale to worry about than energy losses of heat from IC engines.

Using ethanol as a fuel, especially as practiced today, is plagued with most of the same problems as hydrogen. It costs more, energetically, to produce the alcohol than you get out of the alcohol.

Most of the energy inefficiency in our current transportation system is due to social factors, not lack of technology. We choose to drive rather than use public transportation, carpool, or bike or walk. We choose to buy vehicles with high fuel consumption. We like the look of big tires and aerodynamically dirty designs. Consumers are not asking manufacturers to incorporate fuel saving features such as lightweight materials, low rolling resistance tires and aerodynamic bodies in mainstream automobiles. These features contribute a lot to the efficiency of cars like the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight.

Furthermore, much of the fuel efficiency advantage a hybrid car has over a traditional IC vehicle has to do with power management, giving more control over energy expenditures to a sophisticated computer rather than the “nut behind the wheel”. By paying attention to maintenance and driving technique, the average driver could save quite a bit of gas, but we like to get where we are going, dammit. If you check the reviews of hybrids in motor magazines, you’ll notice that those leadfoots tend to get considerably worse fuel economy than the manufacturers claim on the EPA cycle, while owners of these vehicles often treat it almost like a game trying to maximize efficiency.

I’m generally against government intrusion, so I don’t see much difference between the government forcing change via clean air/fuel efficiency legislation or encouraging people to change their habits through direct market-based manipulation, even if the difference is really only semantics.

I’m not so sure about that. What environmental impact will it have when we are releasing billions of tons of water into the atmosphere every day? Maybe that will have its own impact on our climate…

I can’t find the specific thread, but IIRC, Una pointed out in one thread on the hydrogen economy environmental effects that if every car in Phoenix was converted to run on hydrogen, they’d release less water vapor than the swimming pools in the area are. There’s been some studies which indicate it might cause problems with the ozone layer, but I’ve not seen them, so I can’t comment on their accuracy.

The places that I thought of as being the most likely to be impacted by the release of water into the air was the Rio Grande or Colorado river valleys, which run largely through desert areas. It might not be that much compared to Phoenix where water evaporation is highly likely due to extreme heat, but if you consider all the settlements along those river valleys, it would probably increase the amount of water to a slightly significant amount, but who knows, maybe it’ll turn those areas into much lusher nicer areas, and be a balance to the overall ecosystem. The Rio Grande valley constantly has water rights issues, maybe it’ll solve some of them.

Erek

I’ve posted this before, but Argonne did a fairly extensive (albeit theoretical) comparison of multiple alternative fuels, hybrid strategies, and fuel cell vehicles, They looked at energy usage and emissions from well-to-tank and from tank-to-wheel for an overall comparison amongst the alternatives. A rather extensive summary is in Volume 1, with more information in Volume 2. (These are pdfs; also, it looks like Argonne is changing their site around, so I’m not sure if the URLs will be valid for much longer.) The report is a bit long and a bit dated; for a shorter, newer summary, try this presentation from 2004 or this one from 2003.

Another resource is MIT. Check out “Comparative Assessment of Fuel Cell Cars” or “The Performance of Future ICE and Fuel Cell Powered Vehicles and Their Potential Fleet Impact” (the former is a small pdf; the latter is a large one, although they have essentially similar data) for comparisons between fuel cells and hybrids.

The idea of the water in the exhaust causing problems seems like a non-issue, cars with IC engines already produce water in their gas burning, a H2 fuel cell should burn less H2 and create less water (due to higher efficicency of fuel cells vs. IC engines) then a gas burning IC engine.