# Hybrids and ultra efficient cars are bad for society? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 26, 2005, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579 "2005-05-26T10:15:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/21 "2005-05-27T06:21:54Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > I always wondered if hybrids offered _any_ savings pollution-wise for this very reason. I mentioned it to a friend, and my uninformed position was that energy is energy, and since it ultimately came from burning fossil fuels, there would be no difference in pollution. Only hydrogen or nuclear-powered cars would reduce pollutants appreciably. Another buddy scoffed at the latter, and mentioned how many accidents there are on the roads, and how scary the highway would become if all those accidents involved mushroom clouds. So I concluded, purely through potentially faulty reasoning, that electric cars don’t help the pollution problem in any way\*; only hydrogen cells would help. > > Am I way off base? > > - I concede that as technology improves, car emissions are reduced. But I ignore this by applying the same principle to power plants. Some of the cites I linked to mention that large power plants produce electricity much more efficiently than small ones, which is why the electricity at your house is 1/3 the price of electricity produced by a small gas generator (like the engine of a Prius.) I don’t know if this efficiency also translates to overall reduced emissions when comparing hybrid auto emissions to coal fired plant emissions. I have found no studies but would love to see some, if anyone’s got 'em. My gut says no, though - there have been decades of research into making gasoline burn cleaner, I don’t think coal has been given the same level of attention. A very good point ocurred to me when reading your post - gas-electric hybrids don’t have nuclear material in them, but they do have those gigantic batteries. In an accident, I imagine battery acid could get sprayed all over the place. Unpleasant images leap to mind. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/22 "2005-05-27T11:20:37Z")
> [@](#): > > - > - > - Recently Oregon and California both floated ideas of making people put GPS devices in their cars, Well that seems another blow to society (Big Brother tracking us like we are all sex offenders). > [@](#): > > . It’s common to see signs on asphalt parking lots prohibiting large trucks from parking there overnight, because they sink into the asphalt and damage it. While a heave load will cause a depression, and roads that have heavy truck traffic can get tire ridges (much like dirt roads get ruts), I was thinking more that small hard high PSI tires will be more likely to cause and further ‘open’ pot holes. Once open a small tire is more likely to fall into it (wider tires have more of a chance to strattle it) and then impact the opposite side with very hard rubber. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/23 "2005-05-27T13:15:43Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I was thinking, a process that often upsets some dopers, but the cogs are turning again. Most of the high MPG cars ususally have low rolling resistance narrow tires. This are hard rubber, higher PSI, and have a small contact patch then your typical SUV. This would seem to suggest that much more force is exerted on the road by this cars and should cause the road to wear much faster that a ‘normal’ car or a SUV. Gas taxes are sometimes used to repair the roads, so the ultra high MPG driver is getting away with not paying for the damage they cause on society’s roads. The extra weight of a larger car more than cancels out the effects of the smaller contact patch of small high-mileage cars. Also, the narrower contact patch means that any given point on the paving is driven over less often. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/24 "2005-05-27T13:20:39Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > Interesting point here - you can save a lot more money with a hybrid if you are able to plug it in at night. Since most drivers go 10 miles or less a day during the work week, you can do all your city driving without the gas engine ever firing up. Electricity from the grid costs 1/3 the price of electricity generated by the gas engine, so there would be a really significant savings from this approach. With economics like this, it’s hard to see that hybrids won’t offer this option shortly. The downside: Most towns get electricity from coal fired plants. So much for saving emissions. It’s a lot easier to clean up X amount of pollution from one big source (e.g. a power plant) than X amount of aggregate pollution from lots of little sources (e.g. automobiles). Also, people **could** just get over their peasant superstitions about nuc-u-lar stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/25 "2005-05-27T13:42:24Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > I always wondered if hybrids offered _any_ savings pollution-wise for this very reason. I mentioned it to a friend, and my uninformed position was that energy is energy, and since it ultimately came from burning fossil fuels, there would be no difference in pollution. Only hydrogen or nuclear-powered cars would reduce pollutants appreciably. Another buddy scoffed at the latter, and mentioned how many accidents there are on the roads, and how scary the highway would become if all those accidents involved mushroom clouds. So I concluded, purely through potentially faulty reasoning, that electric cars don’t help the pollution problem in any way\*; only hydrogen cells would help. > > Am I way off base? A little. The Prius does not run off other energy sources than fossile fuels at all, but it simply wastes less of it. The whole car is designed to reuse energy that is otherwise simply lost and store it in its battery. For example, if you brake, normally you’d just lose the speed you have, generate heat from the friction of the brake discs and that then just disappears. There are many such clever reuses of energy in that car. Even if the costs of owning a Prius are the same, you’ve still consumed less fuel. And you’re calculating under the assumption that gas prices don’t go up. In my country we pay about 2.5 times what most Americans pay for fuel (we do calculate damage to the environmental into the price), and even the cheapest country, Spain, pays almost double that of what most Americans pay. If the euro hadn’t been this strong, the prices of fuel would have been infinitely higher. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/26 "2005-05-27T13:58:17Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > Cites: > [http://hybridcars.about.com/od/hybridcarfaq/](http://hybridcars.about.com/od/hybridcarfaq/) Summary: Cost of replacing a Prius battery 2-3k. Manufacturer gaurentees 8 year battery life. Add in the fact that hybrids generally cost 3-5k more than gas counterparts at the dealer’s lot, and poof! There went your cost savings from the gas pump. > Can anyone refute these points? I’d love it if I could believe in the hybrid approach again. Well the question becomes is how much would you save on gas over eight years with the Prius (56 mpg) over your current car. (?mpg) Since I don’t know how much you drive or pay for gas I can’t tell you that. Also, if you buy a new car, how long till you change it? Do you keep a car \>8 years? ---
**Author:** ![Osip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4491bb/32.png) [@Osip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Osip)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/27 "2005-05-28T01:55:06Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > A Honda Insight has a maximum (CVT model) curb weight of 1975 lbs on P165/65 R14 78S tires. It’s EPA rated at 57 mpg city and 56 mpg highway. Are you sure about this? The MPG seems wrong. Honda Hybrid system is different than Toyota. They have a huge gain highway mpg over in city mpg. IIRC the sticker on mine when bought in 2000 was 60 mpg city and 70 mpg highway. Osip ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/28 "2005-05-28T01:57:55Z")
> [@xbuckeye](#): > > Wanna blow you mind more? Consider this… > Amish buggies with steel wheels pulled by horses with steel cleats on their shoes do more damage than any car or truck yet pay zero taxes on gas, license plates, etc. They also leave road apples…which are _not_ a tasty treat eaten while travelling. I don’t know about gas emissions, but solid emissions…I could live without. Road apples? Huh? (or am I being whooshed?) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/29 "2005-05-28T02:04:26Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Road apples? Huh? (or am I being whooshed?) Horse poop. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/30 "2005-05-28T02:04:36Z")
> [@Osip](#): > > Are you sure about this? The MPG seems wrong. Honda Hybrid system is different than Toyota. They have a huge gain highway mpg over in city mpg. IIRC the sticker on mine when bought in 2000 was 60 mpg city and 70 mpg highway. > Osip I took that number from the [Honda website under full specifications](http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_full_specs.asp?ModelName=Insight&Category=3) then fuel efficiency. It shows the Insight MT (not the one I used because it’s lighter) at 61/66 and the CVT at 57/56. These are city/highway EPA estimates for 2005. The CVT is the continuous variable transmission which I surmise adds the extra 100 lbs to the vehicle weight but allows those nice smooth startups in the city? I used the heaviest version of each vehicle to make it as “apples to apples” as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/31 "2005-05-28T02:48:01Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > [MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4952048/) Interesting point here - you can save a lot more money with a hybrid if you are able to plug it in at night. Do modern hybrid cars need to be plugged in at all? The Toyota Prius certainly doesn’t. It charges the batteries with energy recovered during braking. > [@Leviosaurus](#): > > Still, they reduces dependence on foreign oil, which is a good thing. And they reduce greenhouse gas emissions which is an even better thing. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/32 "2005-05-28T03:08:03Z")
Let’s suppose that in 8 years, a person with a hybrid drives 100,000 miles. Let’s suppose they’re getting 50 mpg, while with a non-hybrid car they would have gotten 20 mpg. For every 50 miles they drive, they burn one gallon and save 1.5 gallons. Over the eight year period they thus save 3000 gallons, or about $7500 at todays prices. Furthermore it’s reasonable to assume that the batteries will get cheaper over time, while gasoline will only get more expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/33 "2005-05-28T05:54:03Z")
> [@Imasquare](#): > > Do modern hybrid cars need to be plugged in at all? The Toyota Prius certainly doesn’t. It charges the batteries with energy recovered during braking. You need to read the rest of the post. No, they don’t _need_ to be plugged in, but there’s no reason they _can’t_ be plugged in. Once you plug them in, you’re saving yourself a huge amount of money - and releasing coal smoke into the atmosphere. > [@ITR champion](#): > > Let’s suppose that in 8 years, a person with a hybrid drives 100,000 miles. Let’s suppose they’re getting 50 mpg, while with a non-hybrid car they would have gotten 20 mpg. For every 50 miles they drive, they burn one gallon and save 1.5 gallons. Over the eight year period they thus save 3000 gallons, or about $7500 at todays prices. Furthermore it’s reasonable to assume that the batteries will get cheaper over time, while gasoline will only get more expensive. Okay, let’s use your numbers. A hybrid generally costs 5k more than a comparable all-gas model. At the end of 8 years, the battery will need to be replaced. Dealers estimate that the batteries will cost between 2-5k _ **in eight years** _ after the prices have come down. So you trade a savings of $7500 for a cost of somewhere between 7-10k. Doesn’t sound like a savings to me. Especially since your 20mpg versus 50mpg doesn’t really hold water - generally the cars comparable to the hybrids do a lot better than 20mpg, and hybrids reportedly [don’t do nearly as well as they generally claim](http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-tests/4Car-fleet/toyota-prius/index.html). So your $7500 is probably more like $3000. In the end you’re paying more. ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/34 "2005-05-28T06:19:15Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > You need to read the rest of the post. No, they don’t _need_ to be plugged in, but there’s no reason they _can’t_ be plugged in. Once you plug them in, you’re saving yourself a huge amount of money - and releasing coal smoke into the atmosphere. The Prius cannot be plugged in even if you want to (unless they changed the specs since last year). How do you save money by plugging in anyway? The Prius charges its battery from energy that in other cars is lost in the braking process. It is not running a petrol driven generator to charge the battery. It is recovering energy that would otherwise be wasted. So no need to plug it in and no advantage if you could… ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/35 "2005-05-28T15:06:26Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Well the question becomes is how much would you save on gas over eight years with the Prius (56 mpg) over your current car. (?mpg) Since I don’t know how much you drive or pay for gas I can’t tell you that. > > Also, if you buy a new car, how long till you change it? Do you keep a car \>8 years? In my family, all the time. Especially newer cars. There’s one we bought new that is now 19 years old, one we bought used (but fairly young) that lasted about a decade, another one bought used (off someone’s short lease) that will probably last at least until 10 years, and so on. We’re a drive it until the wheels fall off or the engine explodes type of family. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/36 "2005-05-28T17:44:15Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@Zebra](#): > > > > Well the question becomes is how much would you save on gas over eight years with the Prius (56 mpg) over your current car. (?mpg) Since I don’t know how much you drive or pay for gas I can’t tell you that. > > > > Also, if you buy a new car, how long till you change it? Do you keep a car \>8 years? > > > [@asterion](#): > > > > In my family, all the time. Especially newer cars. There’s one we bought new that is now 19 years old, one we bought used (but fairly young) that lasted about a decade, another one bought used (off someone’s short lease) that will probably last at least until 10 years, and so on. We’re a drive it until the wheels fall off or the engine explodes type of family. Same here **asterion** 200,000 miles it not a big deal on a car made in the last 10 years. I’d like a new car. I admit it. My Pathfinder has 190,000 miles on it. But it’s doing great. I don’t have good reason to replace it. There are two schools of thought. Drive it into the ground, or replace it every few years. My plow truck is 30 years old. My primary vehicle is 13 years old. I’m lookin but can’t justify 35g for a new vehicle. This also gives me more choices. Lots of time to look, and find the right ‘next’ vehicle. Let them get the kinks out. ---
**Author:** ![Aitara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aitara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aitara)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/37 "2005-05-28T19:11:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And if the funding becomes a problem they’ll either raise gas taxes or impose some sort of other tax to make up the difference. Oregon Department of Transportation is already looking into flat mileage fees. > [@](#): > > This March, 280 volunteers in Portland will equip their vehicles with mileage-recording technology (a modem-sized device that can either be mounted on the dash or stored in the trunk). > > Mileage tax would be assessed at fueling stations, as the on-board mileage counter communicates with mileage readers at the pump. For the pilot program, the gas tax will be deducted from the total sale and replaced with the mileage tax. [Willamette Week - 5/25/05](http://www.wweek.com/story.php?story=6337) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/38 "2005-05-28T19:29:47Z")
Not to hijack the thread, but why bother with mileage-tracking devices when there’s a perfectly good odometer available? ---
**Author:** ![Aitara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aitara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aitara)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/39 "2005-05-28T20:11:18Z")
The government wants the ability to make the taxes variable based on several factors; peak vs. off peak commute times being the major one, but also in-state vs out-of-state travel. I believe they also wanted the ability to track traffic patterns. This little black box could answer alot of questions (privacy concerns aside) ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579/40 "2005-05-28T20:55:47Z")
My mom works for a Honda dealership and according to her, the folks at the dealership crunched the numbers and unless gas jumps to around $5/gal or so, it won’t pay to have a hybrid as far as saving gas. (And presently, used hybrids are selling for more than **new** ones.) Of course, one thing that hybrid do, that no one’s mentioned: They make it cheaper to drive **more** and **farther**. Since you can now go 600 miles for the same amount of money that it cost you to go 300 miles. I don’t think that the “plug in” variety of hybrids are all that great shakes, either. Yeah, I know, those cars would reduce our dependence on foreign oil and would reduce air pollution if they were in wide spread use, but would they really? First of all, how many people could be bothered to plug in their car every day? Secondly, how much is it going to drive up their light bill? Third, how many people live in apartments where plugging in their car would be difficult, if not impossible? Fourth, what about the increased load on the electrical grid if these things became common? In some places, the power grid gets overtaxed in the summer time with the use of A/C units, adding a bunch of cars to the mix is going cause even more problems. No doubt, hybrids are the wave of the future unless someone figures out cold fusion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hybrids-and-ultra-efficient-cars-are-bad-for-society/305579.md?page=3)