# Hydrogen cars. A reality? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 15, 2005, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-a-reality/317070 "2005-08-15T06:28:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mrmeman12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mrmeman12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrmeman12)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-a-reality/317070/1 "2005-08-15T06:28:50Z")
So, a lot of research is being put into hydrogen fueled cars. But do you think these will ever beat out gas cars? I also have a couple questions How much do they think filling up with hydrogen will cost? How much water will it pour out? Also about gas. WILL IT EVER GO DOWN??? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-a-reality/317070/2 "2005-08-15T06:37:29Z")
I believe that Toyota is going to release a hydrogen fuel cell car in 2015. GM is supposed to release their’s in 2010. This is all speculation though. I know Shell with GM was testing a hydrogen fuel station to go with their current version of fuel cell either this summer or last…I forget which now. The problem I believe is…what will we use to generate the power to make the hydrogen. Obviously if we use oil/coal fired power stations we aren’t really gaining much. We could use solar, and I believe a doper linked an article recently in a hydrogen power thread discussing that option. IMO the ONLY viable option if nuclear…but thats just my opinion obviously. > [@](#): > > How much do they think filling up with hydrogen will cost? My guess is that initially it will be comparable to the price of gas…maybe a bit more. Eventually the price should drop…especially if more efficient means are found to produce the hydrogen. If, say, the US goes 70-80% nuclear then its possible the price of producting and distributing hydrogen would drop lower than the price of gas (and of course the price of converting the fueling infrastructure to hydrogen, distribution to hydrogen and buying a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle). > [@](#): > > WILL IT EVER GO DOWN??? I doubt it. My guess is that from here on out the price of gas will only go up. At some point we’ll reach a level where several alternative technologies will become viable. We may be nearing that point now. -XT ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-a-reality/317070/3 "2005-08-15T12:03:38Z")
There are no such thing as Hydrogen wells. While there is research on using bacteria or plants (after all they extract Hydrogen from water all the time) right now the most efficent way to extract Hydrogen uses natural gas (IIRC). Right now there isn’t a good way to store it (in car). Using metal “sponges” gets you more than just compression, but still not great. You also need the infrastructure (pumps and distribution, unless all the H is generated at the pump) I’d expect for busses, mail trucks, and other vehicles that return to a central hub first. Brian ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-a-reality/317070/4 "2005-08-15T13:29:23Z")
Well, the answer to your question is truly debateable. I think everyone would agree that even _if_ hydrogen-powered cars are viable, they won’t make an appearance for years or decades – they’re simply not competitive here and now. That doesn’t mean they won’t be in the future. However, there are still some significant technological and economic hurdles. Chief among these are the issues mentioned above: distribution infrastructure, the ultimate energy source, and on-board storage. I suspect that if and when hydrogen-fueled cars “beat out” gasoline cars will strictly be a function of economics: when the price of hydrogen made in whatever way becomes lower than gasoline (or, that is to say, gasoline becomes more expensive than hydrogen) by enough of a margin to justify investment in infrastructure, you’ll see a lot more hydrogen-fueled vehicles. Admittedly, this is speculation. A link for your enjoyment: [US DOE Hydrogen Research.](http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/) And, finally: How much water will it pour out? Depends, of course, on efficiency and vehicle size and all that. However, as a benchmark, realize that conventional gasoline-powered vehicles already produce both carbon dioxide and water. A hydrogen-fueled vehicle won’t make any carbon dioxide at all, of course, and my quickie calculation indicates that they’ll produce on the order of two to three times the water ouput that the conventional vehicle does. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-a-reality/317070/5 "2005-08-15T13:40:24Z")
xtisme: > [@](#): > > The problem I believe is…what will we use to generate the power to make the hydrogen. Obviously if we use oil/coal fired power stations we aren’t really gaining much. Maybe not in terms of environmental effects, but if we can substitute coal for oil in the USA, it will reduce the amount of foreign dependence on energy tremendously. Heck, we may even be able to produce some of the necessary hydrogen by burning garbage! A far cry from today, where the only thing our cars will run on requires that petroleum, and only petroleum, be used to make it. ---
**Author:** ![galen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecc23a/32.png) [@galen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-a-reality/317070/6 "2005-08-15T14:22:58Z")
I’m surprised that nobody has pointed out that hydrogen is not an energy _source_ . It is a energy \*storage \* medium. It has to be manufactured using some other source of energy as an input. I can see no advantage to hydrogen. There are many problems with this technology. Hybrid technology is the way to go for the forseable future. As efficent as fuel cells if you account for all energy inputs without all the problems. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-a-reality/317070/7 "2005-08-15T14:37:19Z")
PBS has a new science probram called NOVA Science Now. A recent program had a very good segment on [Hydrogen Fuel Cells](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3210/01.html). You can watch the segment form the link I provided. They were not very optimistic for the short term. One scientist made the point that this technology is more suited to providing energy to buildings than to cars mainly (IIRC) due to the size of the storage tanks needed for the hydrogen. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-a-reality/317070/8 "2005-08-15T16:37:35Z")
> [@galen](#): > > I’m surprised that nobody has pointed out that hydrogen is not an energy _source_ . It is a energy \*storage \* medium. It has to be manufactured using some other source of energy as an input. Well, nobody except for **xtisme**. And **N9IWP**. And me. > [@](#): > > Hybrid technology is the way to go for the forseable future. As efficent as fuel cells if you account for all energy inputs without all the problems. I agree with you there, but it’s certainly a debatable position. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-a-reality/317070/9 "2005-08-15T17:03:45Z")
> [@galen](#): > > I’m surprised that nobody has pointed out that hydrogen is not an energy source . It is a energy storage medium. It has to be manufactured using some other source of energy as an input. I think just about everyone who responded to this thread so far has either stated or implied this was so. Afaik NO ONE has made a claim in this thread that hydrogen is an energy source or that it can somehow be mined or drilled from the ether or something. > [@galen](#): > > I can see no advantage to hydrogen. There are many problems with this technology. There are many advantages too. Most of the problems are engineering. I’m not saying that hydrogen WILL be the replacement for hydrocarbons burned for personal transport, but its certainly in the running…and there certainly are real advantages of hydrogen over fossil fuels (just as there are disadvantages). Its possible that hydrogen powered personal vehicles will never be cost effective, or that something else will come along to replace it (there are other things you can use in fuel cells…methane for instance). > [@galen](#): > > Hybrid technology is the way to go for the forseable future. As efficent as fuel cells if you account for all energy inputs without all the problems. I disagree, I think hybrid technology is a stop gap technology to bridge us through between our current reliance on fossil fuels for transport and whatever replaces it, but as zut said its debate-able. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-a-reality/317070/10 "2005-08-15T17:11:33Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > A far cry from today, where the only thing our cars will run on requires that petroleum, and only petroleum, be used to make it. There have been great strides made in the development and production of ethanol in the last several years. They’ve got it up to 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline (95% ethanol for use in diesel engines). I saw this at a station recently selling for less than $2 per gallon. Many recent-model cars can use it, and lots of fleet vehicles (police and other government vehicles, especially) ([info](http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php)) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-a-reality/317070/11 "2005-08-15T17:25:30Z")
> [@](#): > > by **Zut** > I doubt it. My guess is that from here on out the price of gas will only go up. Oddly, it’s not that high controlling for inflation. > [@](#): > > by **Galen** > I can see no advantage to hydrogen. There are many problems with this technology. It does have one. It concentrate the pollution at a central location, which can make it easier to deal with given the right kind of plant. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-a-reality/317070/12 "2005-08-15T19:08:38Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > by **Zut** > > I doubt it. My guess is that from here on out the price of gas will only go up. > > Oddly, it’s not that high controlling for inflation. Careful: that’s not me you’re quoting, that’s **xtisme**. The future of gas pricing is another debate-able position, I think, anyway; if any of us knew what would happen we’d be investing heavily in oil futures. Or selling short, whatever. > [@smiling bandit](#): > > It [hydrogen] does have one [advantage]. It concentrate the pollution at a central location, which can make it easier to deal with given the right kind of plant. A good point. I still think it would be better to get more excited about hybrids and less about hydrogen, for a variety of reasons (full disclosure: on reason being that part of my job involves hybrid vehicles), but it is an overstatement to say that there are no advantages to hydrogen. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-a-reality/317070/13 "2005-08-15T21:24:48Z")
To be fair though I found [this](http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/15/hybrid.tinkerers.ap/index.html) article on hybrids. 250 miles per gallon? They’re doing it > [@http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/15/hybrid.tinkerers.ap/index.html](#): > > Tinkerers fiddle with hybrids to increase efficiency > > Monday, August 15, 2005; Posted: 10:29 a.m. EDT (14:29 GMT) > > Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage. > > It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret – a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car’s high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel. > > Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car. > > Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home in this San Francisco suburb – all for about a quarter -XT ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-a-reality/317070/14 "2005-08-16T01:10:29Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > To be fair though I found [this](http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/15/hybrid.tinkerers.ap/index.html) article on hybrids. > > 250 miles per gallon? They’re doing it. > > To be fair though I found this article on hybrids. > > > [@http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/15/hybrid.tinkerers.ap/index.html](#): > > > > Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store extra power by **plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home** in this San Francisco suburb – all for about a quarter… Uhm. Not really.