# Hydrogen Cars? Reality or Hindinberg? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 30, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506 "2003-01-30T03:00:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/21 "2003-01-30T08:40:10Z")
Propane is more viable at the moment, the supply network for it is already qite extensive, it gives performance similar to gasoline, and people are already used to using it in gas grills and such so it would be less “alien” for them to use ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/22 "2003-01-30T10:38:54Z")
Gasoline is much more dangerous than hydrogen. Not only can hydrogen be generated from any fossil fuel, it can also be generated from wind power, hydro power, solar cells, you name it. Anything that will make electiricity will make hydrogen. But it will take a long long time to build the knod of infrastructure that is needed for hydrogen cars and I still don’t expect to see them in significant numbers, not in my lifetime anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/23 "2003-01-30T12:05:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Triskadecamus \* > \*\*And a lot easier to lobby a sneaky exemption for your one or two really huge corporate fossil fuel plants through the legislature, too. Especially with the price of Congressmen what it is today. > > Tris \*\* Kindly do not confuse the Great Satan of the Coal Power Plant Industry with the Great Satan of the Petroleum Industry, even if some of the company names/divisions are the same. Every single owner and operator of a coal power plant that I know - some of them personally - would be tickled pink to have electric cars and hydrogen powered cars become prevalent in society. Both of those processes would increase electrical usage overall, under just about every practical scheme I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![ZomZom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zomzom/32/5620_2.png) [@ZomZom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZomZom)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/24 "2003-01-30T12:35:09Z")
Wind power has been suggested as the energy source to extract the hydrogen from water. I’ve heard the author of [this site](http://www.phoenixproject.net) as well as others discuss this proposal. A Google search for wind power will produce other sites. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hat\_s\_Rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@The\_Hat\_s\_Rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hat_s_Rabbit)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/25 "2003-01-30T15:24:48Z")
Does anyone know the expected miles/per gallon we’re supposed to get from hydrogen? It could change the perspective of it, if it was say 2000 m/g, althouh if it was 70 m/g that’s much better but not extraordinary. Hybrids would be just as good would they not? ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/26 "2003-01-30T15:40:27Z")
Question: where’s this hydrogen coming from? There’s lots of speculation (I’ll pick on **Hari** here, just 'cuz of proximity): > [@](#): > > _originally posted by **Hari Seldon** _ > Not only can hydrogen be generated from any fossil fuel, it can also be generated from wind power, hydro power, solar cells, you name it. Anything that will make electiricity will make hydrogen. But what’s the raw materials? Electricity can’t just generate H from nothing. Where are we getting it? Water? It seems to me that that is still a bad idea - contrary to popular belief, water is not a renewable resource. It’s recycled, yes, but it’s non-renewable. There’s only so much of it on this planet (yes, I’m aware that it happens to be a lot, but it’s still a finite amount). Aren’t we just trading one non-renewable resource for another? Bah - anything to get us off a petroleum-based economy. _That_ hasn’t scored us any points either. Snicks ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/27 "2003-01-30T15:59:43Z")
Water is renewed in the working of a fuel cell: Hydrogen + Oxygen --\> Water, yes? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/28 "2003-01-30T16:02:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Snickers \* > **contrary to popular belief, water is not a renewable resource. It’s recycled, yes, but it’s non-renewable. There’s only so much of it on this planet** If it’s recycled, how can it be a non-renewable resource? Hydrogen reacts with oxygen inside an engine (or fuel cell), turns into water vapor and eventually ends up as rain. It’s not destroyed. If we ever run low on _fresh_ water, there’s always desalination. ---
**Author:** ![Grievar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/82dd89/32.png) [@Grievar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grievar)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/29 "2003-01-30T16:08:40Z")
Could we use LiAlH4 or NaBH4 instead of pure hydrogen in fuel cells? It might be a pain since they might deposit solids on the electrodes. ---
**Author:** ![Maxwell\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Maxwell\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maxwell_Edison)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/30 "2003-01-30T16:10:58Z")
Here is a plan to extract hydrogen from sewage: [http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992230](http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992230) and here is a plan to extract hydrogen from sugar: [http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/28/hydrogen\_plants020828](http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/28/hydrogen_plants020828) ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/31 "2003-01-30T17:20:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stan Doubt \* > \*\*The lack of infrastructure is not the problem with Hydrogen vehicles. The problem is **efficiently** producing the fuel. It takes more energy to produce the gas than you get out of the fuel cell. \*\* Bingo. As it stands now, a “hydrogen powered” vehicle is actually a _coal powered vehicle_, or whatever the local utility plant uses for fuel… ---
**Author:** ![Grievar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/82dd89/32.png) [@Grievar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grievar)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/32 "2003-01-30T17:39:56Z")
Why don’t we just plant a huge electrolysis apparatus on top of a bigass geothermal/solar/wind electrical plant? ---
**Author:** ![lokij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@lokij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lokij)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/33 "2003-01-30T18:17:41Z")
We need not depend on fossil fuels to obtain the vast amounts of hydrogen we need to switch from gasoline. Nuclear power would be ideal for this application, with NO emissions of greenhouse gasses. Geothermal/Solar/Wind will never be able to provide the quantities of electricity we need to supply all of our domestic needs. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/34 "2003-01-30T18:22:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grievar \* > \*\*Why don’t we just plant a huge electrolysis apparatus on top of > a bigass geothermal/solar/wind electrical plant? \*\* I think the real answer to your question is provided by the answer to the question: _“Why don’t we have bigass geothermal/solar/wind electrical plants supplying our electricity right now?”_ Una ---
**Author:** ![Grievar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/82dd89/32.png) [@Grievar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grievar)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/35 "2003-01-30T19:18:39Z")
because they’re not constant. However, hydrogen doesn’t have to be produced constantly. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/36 "2003-01-30T20:24:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grievar \* > \*\*because they’re not constant. However, hydrogen doesn’t have > to be produced constantly. \*\* And cost doesn’t enter into that…? ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/37 "2003-01-30T20:46:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by **scr4** _ > If it’s recycled, how can it be a non-renewable resource? Hydrogen reacts with oxygen inside an engine (or fuel cell), turns into water vapor and eventually ends up as rain. It’s not destroyed. If we ever run low on fresh water, there’s always desalination. I was referring to “recycled” as in the evaporation -\> condensation water cycle we all learned about in grade school. Many people confuse this cycle with the idea of a renewable resource. Water isn’t. For example: we use the resource of trees to make lumber and paper, among other things. Are we worried about ever running out of wood with which to make these things? Largely, no. We can plant more trees when we need to. Now, take a pint of water. You use this pint of water to wash your dishes. Somehow, this now dirty washwater is saved and cleaned at your local sewage plant. It’s reusable, yes, but there isn’t _more_ of it - you still have a pint of water (perhaps even less due to losses in processing). And we can’t make more water cheaply and efficiently - we can only recycle what we do have. This is my point - there’s only so much water on the planet. If we start breaking it apart into H and O, we’ve “destroyed” a quantity of water. It’s gone. If the H and O in our fuel cells don’t combine to make as much water in the finished product as was lost in the original decomposition, we’re losing water. Using it up, as it were. Given enough time, we’ll be in the same situation as now: huge demand, but only so much of a given resource. Thanks, **Maxwell** , for the sources of additional hydrogen. Sewage - now _there’s_ a renewable resource! Snicks ---
**Author:** ![DreadCthulhu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DreadCthulhu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DreadCthulhu)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/38 "2003-01-30T20:56:35Z")
The are also not very cost effective either- both fossil fuel and nuclear plants are more effcient at large scale power production than solar or wind, and geothermal is only practical in certain areas. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/39 "2003-01-30T22:30:50Z")
I think Bush’s big push in this area is a red herring to remove the pressure to mandate more fuel efficient vehicles. As has been pointed out by many posters, these vehicles, though admirable in many respects, are not the answer to the world’s pollution problems. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506/40 "2003-01-30T22:37:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sock Munkey \* > \*\*Propane is more viable at the moment, the supply network for it is already qite extensive, it gives performance similar to gasoline, and people are already used to using it in gas grills and such so it would be less “alien” for them to use \*\* Taste the meat, not the heat! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-cars-reality-or-hindinberg/151506.md?page=3)