Hydrogen/electric cars won't fix the problem

I’m always concerned when solutions are supply-centred at the expense of demand-centred. It would be lovely to come up with an eco-friendly fuel (if such a thing is possible) but if our demand for energy keeps rising at the pace it is, we won’t be much better off because a lot of the problems caused by our car addiction won’t be addressed. Such as the congestion issues mentioned above. Add to that the continued destruction of nature, which is important (a) because of all the animals that want to live there and (b) in some places, like the Windsor-Quebec corridor, where 1/3 of Canada lives, prime agricultural land is quickly being paved over to make low-density subdivisions. This is a waste of useful and very high-quality farmland. Another problem un-addressed by fuel is the massive amount of resources used to make, maintain and finally dispose of the automobile.

By interpreting ‘the car problem’ as a fuel problem and not a car/land use problem, you can lull people into a false sense of security. They can ‘justify’ their automobile use based on the cleanliness of the fuel, while ignoring the massive effects they continue to have on the environment.

I have a solution to end all solutions: Everyone buy an SUV.

It may sound crazy at first, but let me explain. I loathe the beasts, but they are the solution. Here are the reasons:

  1. In a collision with another car, SUVs are safer.

  2. SUVs Haul many people.

  3. SUVs guzzle gas.

In an SUV - Car collision, the SUV driver will most likely survive, while the car driver is toast. To fix this problem, if everyone were to buy an SUV, there will be less fatalities, because the collisions are even, and there is a lot of metal between the passenger and the other car/the outside world. Thus, if everyone were to buy an SUV, there would be less fatalities in driving.

  1. Since SUVs are large, they can carry many people. This can encourage car-pooling. Plus, many SUVs have in-car entertainment which makes trips less boring. Vacations can increase family time together and help to bring American family relations closer. Plus, when you go on vacation you use a lot of gas, which is good for reason number 3.

  2. Since SUVs guzzle gas, the oil supply is depleted much quicker. When the oil is depleted quicker, we will have a need to develop economy cars quicker. Plus, when that moment comes, we can reduce our dependancy on arab supplies. Why make economy-friendly cars now and increase the time that we are funding Osama, when we can suck them dry now?

It makes sense to me.

Haven’t you ever played SimCity 2000? I don’t like the idea of a “microwave oops” happening in my neighborhood… :wink:

I’m sorry, but this is incorrect. Gasoline is certainly most economically made from petroleum, but it can be formulated from a wide range of other hydrocarbons. There’s nothing magic about the formula.

Yep, Germany made it out of coal during WWII, and South Africa made gasoline out of coal during their aparthied era embargo. You could also use natural gas, or methane hydrates.

(FYI, there is another hydrogen-cars thread going on right now in the General Questions forum.)

TRANSPORTATION APOCALYPSE NOW!

Or if not now, soon. Sooner than we like to think.

The basic problem is, since WWII, we Americans have built the most automobile-dependent society in the world. Every suburban housing pod, strip mall and office park is built around the assumption that the people who live and work and shop there will own their own cars, and have access to an unlimited supply of cheap fuel, FOREVER. As a result, other alternatives are squeezed out. Going anywhere on foot is inconceivable. Mass transit wouldn’t be economical: No matter how many rail lines you run out to the 'burbs, you can’t build enough so that everybody lives within walking distance of a rail stop. The pattern is too dispersed and low-density. Most people would have to drive to the nearest rail stop – and once you’re in your car, why get out?

It all seemed like a good idea at the time, and in some ways it seems like a good idea still. But it’s become so much a part of the air we breathe that anything different – e.g., building high-density, mixed-use, pedestrian-scale neighborhoods – has become inconceivable. We’re like people who keep an elephant in the bedroom and for some reason never talk about the smell or the wastes or the creaking floorboards.

Kane Holtz Kay, in her book “Asphalt Nation,” did a good job of describing all the problems auto-dependency causes – the obvious ones, such as air pollution, but a great many other problems as well, which would remain even if somebody developed a technology for running cars on some non-polluting, renewable fuel, such as (in theory) hydrogen. Some of these – e.g., the social isolation and placelessness of the suburbs – are not things that everybody would agree at first ARE problems; some would say they’re just choices, and valid ones. But the total picture is rather overwhelming.

An even better source is James Howard Kunstler, and his website, www.kunstler.com, and his three books, “The Geography of Nowhere,” “Home from Nowhere,” and “The City in Mind.” Here is an excerpt from the last, published in 2001 – the chapter on Atlanta, pp. 60, 73-75 (all-caps = italics, which I can’t seem to be able to transcribe on this board):
A current popular belief in America is that “alternative fuels” could replace gasoline in the vehicles we use and that the system could merrily roll along without petroleum as if nothing had happened. This a dangerous delusion. The truth is that no known “alternative technology,” including hydrogen, fuel cell, electricity, nuclear, or alcohol from biomass, can take the place of gasoline in the way we have organized our lives, especially where cars and trucks are concerned. None of the touted alternative fuels is as versatile as gasoline, or can be produced for anything close to the cheap price of gas we’ve been accustomed to, or can be stored or transported as easily. The electric car is not going to save Atlanta.

        *          *           *          *          *

I started this chapter by asking the question, does Edge City have a future? My answer is a plain NO. In Atlanta they are constructing a giant misbegotten organism that will almost certainly not be able to function far into the future. Suburbia, more than being a set of THINGS, might be described more accurately as a set of behaviors. They were behaviors made possible only under the extremely abnormal conditions of late-twentieth-century life in the U.S.A.: unprecedented political and economic stability, extraordinary immunity to the consequences of bad decisions (really, the ability to mortgage the present against the future), and cheap oil, cheap oil, cheap oil. All these things are apt to change in the years directly ahead.

In the public debates about suburbia, the idea is almost always put forward that suburbia exists because Americans like it and want it. That may have been so. But if so, it may have been a poor choice. What’s more, that people like a way of living, or are accustomed to certain behavior, does not mean that circumstances will necessarily allow them to continue that way of living. Junkies like their heroin, too, but after a while their veins collapse, their immune systems switch off, and their organs begin to shut down. I’m convinced that circumstances in the twenty-first century will compel us to live very differently.

The next economy will be the Repo economy when, for example, amazing numbers of “Ditech 25 percent dream loans” will be labeled NONPERFORMING and seedy-looking men armed with repossession notices show up in the circular driveways of the defaulted-upon chipboard-and-vinyl McMansions in places like Cherokee County, Georgia, to change the locks on the putative collateral. I see this unwinding of credit and presumed wealth evolving into a tremendous political fight over the table scraps of the cheap-oil economy and the dubious material artifacts it produced, pitting neighbor against neighbor, group against group, and region against region.

I believe the world is entering a long era of chronic instability in oil markets that no amount of wishing or pretending will hold back. By the time this book is publised – a year from now – I shall be surprised if we are not experiencing the initial effects. The two oil-producing regions that allowed America to postpone this reckoning for twenty-five years, the Alaskan North Slope fields, and the North Sea fields (belonging to Britain and Norway), are scheduled to pass their production peaks this year, and after that, most of the oil in the world will be controlled by people who don’t like us, or contained in regions to chaotic to engage in the complex business of oil extraction. The Middle East regions containing the greatest reserves will be the last to peak, but long before they do, the oil markets will destabilize. In the current American mood of narcotized inattention, the point can’t be emphasized enough that it is not necessary for oil reserves to run out before world oil markets are severely destabilized. And when that occurs, industrial economies will be painfully compromised.

We Americans cherish a set of delusions to minimize or deflect the seriousness of this. As already touched on, we believe that we can run a drive-in civilization on some fuel other than petroleum. The actual prospects for this are dim, but we base our belief (a wish, really) on the spectacular cavalcade of technological achievements that occurred in the previous century, one astonishing novelty after another: airplanes, movies, radio, TV, antibiotics, Teflon, computers, automobiles themselves. (The lingering “victory disease” from our great triumph in World War Two still stokes our delusions of invincibility.) Alternative energy sources such as natural gas, biomass, coal, nuclear power, solar power, fuel cells, and so forth, will fall far short of compensating for disrupted oil markets. It will be a hard lesson. The world’s fleet of eleven thousand jet airplanes will not run on coal or plutonium. Massive disruptions to transportation and business will occur. The “global economy” as touted in recent years – meaning the long-range transport of enormous quantities of cheap goods virtually everywhere – will join mercantile imperialism in the history books. Food production, which depends heavily on oil-based fertilizers, will be affected by oil market disturbances. The Caesar salad that travels twenty-five hundred miles from California to somebody’s table in Atlanta will become an object of nostalgia. Farming will have to become much more labor-intensive, will have to be practiced on a far smaller scale, and done much closer to market. Half a million other products, from medicine, asphalt, paint and detergent to plastic trash bags, are also derived from oil. As the oil markets destabilize, shortages and fluctuating prices in oil will hinder industry from even addressing the problem from converting societies to other forms of energy.

BrainGlutton once again makes some seriously good points. I think the name of this thread would more accurately read "Hydrogen/electric cars ALONE won’t fix the problem.
Also, those of you who think producing energy with nuclear reactors is a good idea should be aware of the fact that as well as being dangerous and dirty, (there’s not a single day in the calendar year that isn’t an anniversary of at least one nuclear accident) they’re completely unprofitable. I’d trust a crackhead before I trusted a nuclear industry spokesperson…if I could compile all of the lies I’ve seen repeated by them over the years, I’d have enough to fill a set of encyclopedias. It’s not about energy, it’s about weapons.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” - George Orwell

Cite? How are you defining an ‘accident’? To be fair, let’s define an accident as “One causing significant loss of life or environmental damage.” That way we don’t count ‘accidents’ such as a nuclear waste truck getting a flat tire. NOW how many accidents have their been?

I’ll save you the trouble - ONE. Chernobyl. Using a design that would not pass the standards of any western nation, and an accident of a type that is flatly impossible with modern CANDU or pebble-bed reactors.

Now, in comparison, shall we add up the number of people killed each year in petroleum-production and power generation?

It’s not even close.

As for nuclear being unprofitable - no, it’s not. Canada’s nuclear power is very competitive. Newer designs are even cheaper. No, it’s not as cheap as coal or natural gas. But’s it’s a hell of a lot cheaper than wind or solar.

Isn’t there more orbiting crap in low Earth orbit (where MIR is) than there is in Geostationary orbit (where a microwave-beaming solar satellite would be)?

Reasons why I still drive:

Weather: As a Canadian, walking or biking, is unpractical 8 months of the year, and one of those months was actually in the summer.

Public transit blows: As BrainGlutton mentioned, why would I wait/walk 30min for a bus when I could drive somewhere in that time? Then combine that with the weather problem. I could rant for days about why public transit won’t work as an environmental solution.

Boxes: I bought a mini-fridge last month; tell me what environmental option would have gotten that back to my house. There was no way I could carry it home. To use the bus or subway is impractical due to the size of the box, the number of stairs, and the distance from the store, to the bus, and then to my house.

Multiple Destinations: Combined with the three problems above, public transit starts to break down when I want to first buy a mini-fridge, and then buy some beer to put in it.

If you can’t address those problems you will never eliminate the car.

I can tell you as an engineer, change will only happen gradually. We have too much invested in our current infrastructure to make a radical switch. A cleaner fuel is not the end answer, but it is a great first step while we work on better solutions. I’m also not convinced hydrogen power is the way to go since if you are using energy to make it, why bother with the hydrogen at all and not just use electric motors.

To directly rebuff your statement, a review of http://archive.greenpeace.org/~comms/nukes/chernob/rep02.html shows several calendar days without a Greenpeace defined accident.

Also, most of those dates do not refer to the nuclear power industry. To date we have had four major nuclear incidents: Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, one in India, and one in Japan at a nuclear processing plant. Compare that to the number of accidents involving oil tankers. I agree during the 1950s and 60s, electric power was a by-product while they were making weapons grade nuclear material, this is no longer the case, it ihas nothing to do with weapons (with the exception of dirty bombs but they could also be made from hospital waste).

There are currently two reasons why nuclear energy is not as profitable as it could be: 1.) Excessive (and required) government regulation. Flying_Monk I wish you would direct some of your hostility away from nuclear energy, and encourage similar safeguards placed on the petroleum industry. 2.) The term profitable is compared to petroleum driven energy prices which are low because gas prices are low. If anything causes the world oil price to increase (like in the 80s) nuclear energy would see considerably more profitable.

Well, the idea that nuclear power is unprofitable is news to me. The nuclear power plants that I’ve worked at have been making lots of electricity and lots of money. If you want to make large amounts of hydrogen to fuel cars, nuclear is the only way to go. Otherwise you get more pollution than you save. Nuclear power creates no emissions whatsoever and you always know exactly where the waste is.

The idea that a nuclear accident happens every day in the nuclear power industry is totally false. That is exactly the type of falsehood that I would expect Greenpeace/Public Citizen/NIRS/CAN to try to circulate.

Well, the last few responses are typical of the dishonesty rampant in discussions of nuclear power. I’ll address a few issues that I have time for. (I’m a business owner & unless I start getting checks for my responses, I’ll answer when I feel like it, and if someone doesn’t believe something I say, they can either deal with it, or present a logical argument, with cites, and maybe I’ll respond) I won’t stoop to answer ridiculous posts.

Sam Stone, Canada’s nuclear industry is just as unprofitable as ours - they’re supported by massive subsidies, and they’re a drain on the economy. Here’s one link:

http://www.cnp.ca/issues/nuclear-subsidies-2000.pdf

No nuclear power plant, in ANY country, has EVER turned a profit, and never will. Reactors are bought with subsidies, the fuel is paid for with subsidies, and when they’re mothballed (always long before the official estimates of their longevity) they’re cleaned up with taxpayer money. As far as accidents go, I’m not talking about flat tires. I’ve heard repeated many times the lie that no one has ever died in a nuke plant directly from an accident - this is not only true in the literal sense, it’s an insult to the thousands of nuclear workers who’ve developed cancer due to exposure to radiation in plants.
Sure, you can make an argument that no one can prove any of them died because of radiation - you can make the same argument about cigarettes & lung cancer. No one can prove that any cancer definitely had one source, but don’t expect me to believe that cigarette smoking doesn’t cause lung cancer.

Of course, coal-fired plants are dirty as well. Of course, the pollution from these plants causes many cases of cancer each year. To say that nuclear energy is clean, however, ignores the entire complex chain of events that is responsible for the fuel getting to the reactor in the first place, where nuclear truly shows its dirty nature: the mining and refining stages of uranium production. There are vast areas of land which have been rendered uninhabitable due to these processes.

As far as economy goes, nothing’s cheaper than wind energy. One only has to look at the basic technology to see the truth in this: all you need for the power part of the equation is a generator and some blades, and usually a tower. Pretty basic, and if wind and solar got a minute fraction of the subsidies that oil & nuclear got, there’d be solar shingles on everyone’s house, and we wouldn’t need mass centralized power generation facilities at all.

Emacknight is correct about one thing: it’s wrong to think we can change anything overnight. We’ve got to start looking ahead & planning, and implementing changes gradually.

How good would solar power be at replacing present oil use?
Number crunching time

1.02 x 1011 MWh/year,= present energy use of the earth = we will call that P

1.512 x 1015 MWh/year = total sunlight incident on the earth

15000 times as much energy in the form of sunlight hits the earth as is used in the oil economy.
i.e. 15000xP
Collect all this energy and you would have 15000 times as much energy as we now use world wide.
But- 40% is reflected off by the clouds –
leaving 6000xP
Unless you want to cover the oceans in solar panels
The earth is 70% water-
Leaving 1800xP
Assume10% efficiency
Leaving 180xP
If you covered the continents in solar panels you would get 180 times as much energy as you need.

But to give the current population a North American standard of living you need to quadruple the amount of energy collected so
180/4 = 45 x P

You would need to cover one part in 45 of the total land surface of the earth in solar panels to give every body an North American standard of living.

Is this acceptable? It is perhaps not as bad as it seems, because (as Ihave said before) half of the world’s land surface is relatively unpopulated. Much of this is dry sunny desert.

However, I part in 45 is uncomfortably large, which is why I think the orbiting solar collectors need not be dismissed out of hand.

They will probably be built eventually anyway, to power industry on the moon and near earth objects. With luck and diplomacy Earth might benfit from these solar power arrays as well.

snip----
should read-
1.02 x 10^11 MWh/year,= present energy use of the earth = we will call that P

1.512 x 10^15 MWh/year = total sunlight incident on the earth
snip----------

So if anyone disagrees with you and who works in the nuclear industry is by definition not trustworthy? Have you ever visited a nuclear power plant? A lot of the visitor’s centers are still open after 9/11 and I would encourage you to do so. It may open your eyes…

Well, we made a good return on our investment last year at Fort Calhoun Nuclear Power Station. And we’re a public utility. By your argument, ANY power plant, nuclear, coal or otherwise, has yet to make any money. We’re even getting our operating license extended so we can operate another 20 years because we’re such a good performer.

This makes no sense at all. Just because people get cancer doesn’t mean they got it from nuclear power plants. The risk of cancer from nuclear power plants is negligible and has been shown to be so. Nuclear workers are in fact healthier than the general population.

But these processes are cleaner than and less dangerous than mining coal. Where are these vast uninhabitable areas?

Nuclear power plants run at 100% all the time for a reason; they take up the load on the grid that is always there - the base load. Solar and wind, while viable, are only suitable for peak loads. Solar and wind get substantial subsidies in the US and remain the most expensive ways to generate power. The wind turbine that the company that I work for operates has substantially higher costs/MW than the nuclear power plant I work at.

This link provides lots of good info as to why nuclear power is important and safe:

http://www.nei.org/doc.asp?catnum=3&catid=638

You are ranting about the current state of public transit in your area. That doesn’t mean it cannot get better. There are many cities in the world where driving to the center of town is far more time-consuming, expensive and stressful than taking public transit.

Take a taxi, or have it delivered, or buy it by mail order. I think taxis are better than personal vehicles. They may produce as much pollution per mile as a personal automobile, but people limit their use, there is less environmental cost of manufacturing the vehicles, and there is no problem with parking.

I do agree with that. Simply telling people to get rid of their cars is not a valid solution. But we could encourage the development of public transit and a city/suburb structure that works well with public transit. And to do that, I think the public transit must be installed first and if necessary, operated by the government at a loss until the city grows around it. It’d do a lot more good than spending money on alternative fuel research.

Trams and light railways are good systems- no need for hydrogen there.

There’s no reason not to have a railway system in place with feeder bus lines. This is what is done in NYC with the subway system. For some reason, this is beyond the comprehension of suburban transit planners. I have no idea why, as it’s so obvious and is already being done.
Where I live, I have a rail line about 5 miles from my house. Can’t use it though because there’s no all day parking near the station, and when I asked the bus company if buses ran to the railway station from where I lived, they just laughed.
Unbelievably stupid. No other phrase for it.

To pantom:

The reason why you can have such a dense and efficient system of public transportation in NYC and not in the suburbs is economy of scale. Subways are hideously expensive (the last quote that I heard from the MTA was that it cost a billion dollars per mile create a subway line). In a city as densely populated as New York you can get enough use out of subways to make it worthwile build and mantain them. Even with that amount of use the MTA is still heavily subsidized, it’s just that there’s no other alternative (New York would just grind to halt if everybody had to drive, it’s just too dense). In the suburbs the costs of building such forms of transportation would be the same but you wouldn’t have nearly enough of a poulation to make it practical (either in the form of paying customers or in the form of a tax base). Don’t get me wrong I wouldn’t live anywhere else in the US except NYC in large part because I like the density of it and the fact that I love the interaction I get from subways and walking everywhere, it’s just that it’s not a model that is applicable to most of US.