# Hydrogen power in a car, no fuel cell **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 20, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-power-in-a-car-no-fuel-cell/251271 "2004-06-20T04:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![57THAI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f07891/32.png) [@57THAI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/57THAI)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-power-in-a-car-no-fuel-cell/251271/1 "2004-06-20T04:30:05Z")
I have information on a device that is basically an electrolysis unit that generates hydrogen and oxygen for use in an auto engine. The engine powers an alternator that generates electricity that is used to convert water to H2 and O2, which run the the engine, make the car go, and so on. It looks OK to me, but a friend says it’s a perpetual motion machine that defies the facts of physics and can’t possibly work. He says the water is not the fuel, and I say the hydrogen in the water is, which allows the engine to run and generate enough power to do everything. Does anyone know how much electrical energy (Watts) is needed to make one cubic foot of H2 at 65psi? The promoter says he can “crack” water efficiently because he has a better way of using the electricity that goes to the electrodes in the water – he modifies the current electronically. He also says he can adjust the output of the electrolysis unit to get the proper balance of orthohydrogen and parahydrogen to allow the auto engine to run well. DC is used in the electrolysis unit. If anyone can shed light on this I would appreciate it. TIA. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-power-in-a-car-no-fuel-cell/251271/2 "2004-06-20T04:51:07Z")
Assuming you’re talking about these folks [Genesis World Energy](http://www.worldenergymanagement.com/genesis_world_energy.htm) [Here is an extensive analysis of their claims](http://members.cox.net/john.lichtenstein/) Answer \> Yes, it’s a scam, a classic one. > [@](#): > > GENESIS PROJECT: A REALLY GOOD SCAM CAN BE USED OVER AND OVER. > Back in the early '70s, an inventor named Sam Leach claimed to have built a car that used ordinary water as a fuel. The idea was simple: You use electrolysis to decompose the water into oxygen and hydrogen and then use the hydrogen as a fuel to run the engine and generate electricity for the separation. So there you have it: You start with water and end up with water plus work. Scientists scoffed: it would take more energy to decompose the water than you could get from the combustion of hydrogen. Ordinarily yes, Leach agreed, but he had a secret catalyst that reduced the energy of decomposition. The great thing about the First Law of Thermodynamics, however, is that it doesn’t care what’s in your secret box, it gives you the limit of any process. Leach raised millions from investors and then retired to a seaside villa in California. Who needs a car that runs on water when you have a chauffeur-driven Rolls-Royce? The rumor spread that he had been bought off by the oil companies. Now something called Genesis World Energy is running the same scam over again. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-power-in-a-car-no-fuel-cell/251271/3 "2004-06-20T05:39:10Z")
Oh that definitely sounds like “perpetual motion technology” at work. Basically, you can never get any more energy from a system than what has been input to it. A crude way to sum up 2 of the laws of thermodynamics is “You can’t get something for nothing and you can’t ‘break even’ either”. Basically, this “engine” is similar to putting photoelectric cells on all the walls of your house, and when you use the lights, the energy these supply to the photoelectric cells can then be fed back into the house current and you’ll have more than enough electricity for your entire life !!!" Nope. Physics does not work that way. **Astro** made a good posting about this too. This fraud goes back to the days of John Keely in the late 19th century. [http://www.totse.com/en/fringe/free\_energy/keelhoax.html](http://www.totse.com/en/fringe/free_energy/keelhoax.html) A few decades ago, Joe Newman came out with a “revolutionary” method of generating energy. He even made an appearance on the Johnny Carson show. It seems he is still, to this day, trying to bilk money from people. [http://www.phact.org/e/skeptic/new\_sol.htm](http://www.phact.org/e/skeptic/new_sol.htm) With a Google search you can find out much more information about these 2 con artists. No doubt there have been many more frauds of this type. ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-power-in-a-car-no-fuel-cell/251271/4 "2004-06-20T06:40:54Z")
> [@57THAI](#): > > He also says he can adjust the output of the electrolysis unit to get the proper balance of orthohydrogen and parahydrogen That right there is an indication that this scheme is not based in scientific fact. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-power-in-a-car-no-fuel-cell/251271/5 "2004-06-20T11:11:06Z")
- - - Electrolysis cna be used to separate hydrogen and oxygen which can then be recombined and burned, but there is a net energy loss when this is done. - One direct application of this method is a “Brown’s gas” welder. Directly separating water into hydrogen and oxygen means that you have a perfect mix of gasses that is totally consumed when burned (so that in both theory and practice it burns nearly-_perfectly_ clean, and doesn’t contaminate the welding work with unspent gasses), and that implodes when ignited instead of exploding–which makes the flame much quieter and allows for some unusual uses as well that other welding gasses don’t do well, or can’t do at all. The welding machines do not “store” the separated gasses at all, because doing that would introduce errors into the mix when they were re-combined–the welding machines are made to _only_ produce the separated gasses on-demand. - Brown’s gas welders are very simple in principle–IIRC the electrodes dipped into the water need to be stainless steel, and the current has to be DC–and hydrogen comes off one pole and oxygen off the other. The welders are very expensive to buy, however–and take industrial-electrical-sized hookups to run. They need LOTS of electricity to generate enough gas for a welding flame, which should tell you something right there. The “energyoptions” link below makes a number of claims, I don’t know of those are all true but various sources who have seen and used these machines say that you can do some amazing welding with them. [http://www.energyoptions.com/tech/browns.html](http://www.energyoptions.com/tech/browns.html) [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=brown's+gas+welding&btnG=Google+Search](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=brown%27s+gas+welding&btnG=Google+Search) ~ ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-power-in-a-car-no-fuel-cell/251271/6 "2004-06-20T19:22:35Z")
It’s coceivable that some intrepid inventor has come up with a more efficient way to crack the water or to generate the electricity, but that just means that you’ll lose energy more slowly. It’s like pouring water from one bucket to another and back again: Even if you do it really carefully so you spill almost no water, you still won’t end up with more water than you started with. To this day, I still don’t understand why so many people are willing to accept claims of perpetual motion devices. They’re all impossible, without exception. ---
**Author:** ![57THAI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f07891/32.png) [@57THAI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/57THAI)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-power-in-a-car-no-fuel-cell/251271/7 "2004-06-20T21:40:56Z")
Thanks for all the info and links. Would appreciate further data, especially links, on electrical power sources for autos, motorcycles, etc., so if anyone has more for me, please pass it on. 57THAI