# Hydrogen - the Fuel of the Future? (YouTube video) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 24, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-the-fuel-of-the-future-youtube-video/813046 "2018-04-24T16:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-the-fuel-of-the-future-youtube-video/813046/21 "2018-04-24T21:33:51Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > No it isn’t. Go find a Tesla or Bolt owner and ask them. Ok. I looked up the Bolt. It’s optimal range seems to be 238 miles under good conditions. However, if it’s cold (or hot) and you use things like the heater or AC and other electronics that drops…according to [this](https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115039_chevy-bolt-ev-electric-car-range-and-performance-in-winter-one-owners-log) users log, it dropped to around 150 miles. I also looked up the average time to recharge for the Bolt and it seems to be several hours, not half an hour for 80%. > [@](#): > > And it happens when the car is parked anyway. If you have a convenient break in your trip that allows you to park. If you don’t then you have a problem that you don’t current have, thus it’s performance envelop is not as good unless you are only considering shorter trips with long intervals for recharging. > [@](#): > > Price is a huge factor, along with low gas prices. EVs are still expensive enough that you would never recoup the full cost through gas saving alone, at least not with current US gas prices. (Even if you intend to keep your car 200,000 miles, at 40 mpg it will only use $12,000 worth of gas. Even if electricity were free, which it obviously isn’t, the price difference between EVs and comparable gas cars are about that much.) > > Also, there is very limited selection of EVs (nobody makes an electric pickup truck, minivan or convertible), and there is always skepticism towards unfamiliar new technologies. No worries then…you shall be vindicated in a few years as the market decides. You can revive this thread and tell me all about how I was wrong. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Just like EVs - there are only 3 manufacturers right now that make EVs with any reasonable range (Tesla, GM and arguably Nissan). Prices will fall and production numbers will increase as they scale up their production, and more companies join in. We shall see, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Vorlon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@The\_Vorlon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Vorlon)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-the-fuel-of-the-future-youtube-video/813046/22 "2018-04-24T21:34:04Z")
Hydrogen not only goes right through seals, it migrates right through the tanks themselves. It burns outside of visible light–firefighters detect hydrogen fires by waving a broom around until it bursts into flames. See a Delta IV launch for example–the aft end of the rocket is NORMALLY in flames at startup.:eek: As Dr. Jerry Pournelle once noted: Hydrogen wants _OUT_. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-the-fuel-of-the-future-youtube-video/813046/23 "2018-04-24T21:43:34Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Zero, as far as I know. They are still in the prototype stage and still being tested. But the main reason isn’t production of the vehicles or any need for any sort of special materials to build them, it’s logistics and infrastructure. Hydrogen vehicles are [available](https://www.wired.com/2017/04/honda-will-nearly-anything-get-hydrogen-car/) [for](https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai-questionnaire/?srchid=sem%7CGOOGLE%7CMirai_CA%7CModel_Mirai_CA_RLSA%7CMirai_General_E%7CMirai_CA_RLSA_Addition_7.13.17%7CMirai_Questionnaire&gclid=CjwKCAjwq_vWBRACEiwAEReprIR80O-2OA0CMQ6hfEMnXU3I_6b2jntyV0he9L8m5vwVmAxYbXqFvRoCoeMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds) [purchase](http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/index.php/ford-focus-fcv/) (Ford has actually been selling hydrogen fuel cell vehicles for fleet use for over ten years) but to be practical as a daily driver you would need to live [somewhere near a hydrogen fueling station](https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/hydrogen_locations.html#/find/nearest?fuel=HY), which basically means in either Southern California or along the West Bay/San Mateo corridor. Hydrogen fuel cells are expensive specifically because of the need for a platinum cataylist bed and other rare elements, and the infrastructure to support a nationwide hydrogen fuel network is daunting to say the least, especially because of the low density of hydrogen even if you liquify it (as is done for rockets but impractical and enormously inefficient for ground use, not to mention all of the additional problems that come along with cryogenic fluids). While the US electrical grid would need to be upgraded to support the increased electrical power requirement for widespread electric vehicle use, that needs to happen anyway and is far easier and cheaper than building hydrogen fuel storage and distribution stations. The issue of “range anxiety” for electric vehicles is an issue if you typically drive hundreds of miles in a day but a vehicle that could offer 120 miles or more of range would be more than adequate for the bulk of commuters. This really argues for a change in transportation habits rather than a fundamental limitation that would stall wide adoption of electric vehicle. The bigger hurdles are cost—while electric vehicles are getting cheaper, and almost certainly have a lower total cost of ownership compared with gasoline and diesel vehicles, the need to purchase one new is out of the grasp of many people even in developed countries—and the fact that there does not exist sufficient lithium ion battery manufacturing capacity to produce enough electric vehicles to replace more than a small fraction of cars operating in the US and Europe. Setting up manufacturing plants for modern lithium ion or lithium polymer batteries requires a lot of capital and several years (as Tesla has discovered with their Gigafactory), and when the technology shifts to a different basis like lithium-sulfur it would require a substantial retrofit. There are also offgrid applications where electric vehicles are just not well suited, at least given the current limitations. However, hydrogen would not be a good fuel for these, either due to the difficulties in transporting and storing it outside of dedicated facilities. So liquid hydrocarbon vehicles of some type will remain in service in various capacities for the foreseeable future, although for normal commuting and likely over the road haulage electric vehicles will be adopted essentially as costs drop and the actual vehicles can be produced. Autonomous piloting systems and a subscription or pay-per-use model versus personal ownership will likely increase the rate of adoption as usage can be optimized for maximum value rather than having vehicles sitting idle in parking lots or garages all day. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-the-fuel-of-the-future-youtube-video/813046/24 "2018-04-24T21:44:11Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Ok. I looked up the Bolt. It’s optimal range seems to be 238 miles under good conditions. However, if it’s cold (or hot) and you use things like the heater or AC and other electronics that drops…according to [this](https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115039_chevy-bolt-ev-electric-car-range-and-performance-in-winter-one-owners-log) users log, it dropped to around 150 miles. Like I said, go talk to an owner, and ask if they feel range anxiety. > [@](#): > > I also looked up the average time to recharge for the Bolt and it seems to be several hours, not half an hour for 80%. I said 90 miles, not 80%. And that’s with the DC Fast Charge which is supposed to be “optional,” though a Bolt owner I know said every one he saw at the dealer had it. But that’s only relevant for long road trips. The typical use case is, you get home, you plug it in. Takes 5 seconds of your time. > [@](#): > > If you have a convenient break in your trip that allows you to park. If you don’t then you have a problem that you don’t current have, thus it’s performance envelop is not as good unless you are only considering shorter trips with long intervals for recharging. And the hydrogen car will have that same problem unless hydrogen filling stations are as ubiquitous as gas stations are now. > [@](#): > > No worries then…you shall be vindicated in a few years as the market decides. You can revive this thread and tell me all about how I was wrong. 🙂 I didn’t make any predictions. I was explaining why EV sales are as low as they are today, and it’s very possible those factors (mainly the low gas price) remain the same for the next few years. But if that were the case, we won’t have hydrogen stations either. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-the-fuel-of-the-future-youtube-video/813046/25 "2018-04-24T21:44:13Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > **XT** , I’m not sure what you’re arguing. It sounded like you felt hydrogen cars were more viable than electric cars, but your arguments are all about electric versus ICE. > Range anxiety is due to cars with short ranges and gaps in the charging station network. Ranges have increased dramatically in the last few years, and the network issue would be much worse with the first hydrogen cars that come out. You can’t compare the EV situation today with some theoretical mature hydrogen infrastructure. > Because it’s an immature market with an infrastructure that is just starting to be developed. Why do you think this is any different than the path hydrogen would take? > The problems with hydrogen are not only logistics and infrastructure. As discussed above, energy density, production costs, and finding materials for transport and storage that won’t corrode and leak are all significant engineering and economic issues. I think most ICE-alternative researches would say the battery challenges are easier to solve than all the challenged with hydrogen. Currently there are no hydrogen fuel cell powered production vehicles that I’m aware of, so hard to compare. WRT performance envelop, from what I understand hydrogen and ICE using gas/diesel are similar (obviously not from a cost perspective), so that’s why I was comparing the two. I didn’t say that logistics and infrastructure were the only problems, I said they were the main issues to any sort of deployment right now. I freely acknowledged there are others, even mentioned the ones you brought up here. Cost certainly is a major issue. But the chicken and the egg issue is the most difficult, since even if you could get past the others there is no logistics or infrastructure for hydrogen…you’d have to build it from scratch, really, since as you and others noted hydrogen is corrosive and can’t simply use the existing fuel infrastructure. As to the last, I agree…most alternative researchers do feel that battery technology is the way to go wrt replacing our current paradigm. They are probably right, though I see some serious issues that can’t just be handwaved away. Perhaps with breakthroughs in battery technology giving more range and quicker recharge along with a build out of electrical infrastructure to allow more recharge opportunities it will be the replacement. At this point hydrogen seems to not be the answer, though to me it’s interesting where it is going and that it’s still being developed and researched, and even prototypes deployed and tested. In the early days of cars, steam seemed to be the way things would go, and electric was also in the running. But ICE won out. We shall see how that goes this time around. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-the-fuel-of-the-future-youtube-video/813046/26 "2018-04-24T21:47:34Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Hydrogen vehicles are [available](https://www.wired.com/2017/04/honda-will-nearly-anything-get-hydrogen-car/) [for](https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai-questionnaire/?srchid=sem%7CGOOGLE%7CMirai_CA%7CModel_Mirai_CA_RLSA%7CMirai_General_E%7CMirai_CA_RLSA_Addition_7.13.17%7CMirai_Questionnaire&gclid=CjwKCAjwq_vWBRACEiwAEReprIR80O-2OA0CMQ6hfEMnXU3I_6b2jntyV0he9L8m5vwVmAxYbXqFvRoCoeMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds) [purchase](http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/index.php/ford-focus-fcv/) (Ford has actually been selling hydrogen fuel cell vehicles for fleet use for over ten years) but to be practical as a daily driver you would need to live [somewhere near a hydrogen fueling station](https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/hydrogen_locations.html#/find/nearest?fuel=HY), which basically means in either Southern California or along the West Bay/San Mateo corridor. Hydrogen fuel cells are expensive specifically because of the need for a platinum cataylist bed and other rare elements, and the infrastructure to support a nationwide hydrogen fuel network is daunting to say the least, especially because of the low density of hydrogen even if you liquify it (as is done for rockets but impractical and enormously inefficient for ground use, not to mention all of the additional problems that come along with cryogenic fluids). While the US electrical grid would need to be upgraded to support the increased electrical power requirement for widespread electric vehicle use, that needs to happen anyway and is far easier and cheaper than building hydrogen fuel storage and distribution stations. > > The issue of “range anxiety” for electric vehicles is an issue if you typically drive hundreds of miles in a day but a vehicle that could offer 120 miles or more of range would be more than adequate for the bulk of commuters. This really argues for a change in transportation habits rather than a fundamental limitation that would stall wide adoption of electric vehicle. The bigger hurdles are cost—while electric vehicles are getting cheaper, and almost certainly have a lower total cost of ownership compared with gasoline and diesel vehicles, the need to purchase one new is out of the grasp of many people even in developed countries—and the fact that there does not exist sufficient lithium ion battery manufacturing capacity to produce enough electric vehicles to replace more than a small fraction of cars operating in the US and Europe. Setting up manufacturing plants for modern lithium ion or lithium polymer batteries requires a lot of capital and several years (as Tesla has discovered with their Gigafactory), and when the technology shifts to a different basis like lithium-sulfur it would require a substantial retrofit. > > There are also offgrid applications where electric vehicles are just not well suited, at least given the current limitations. However, hydrogen would not be a good fuel for these, either due to the difficulties in transporting and storing it outside of dedicated facilities. So liquid hydrocarbon vehicles of some type will remain in service in various capacities for the foreseeable future, although for normal commuting and likely over the road haulage electric vehicles will be adopted essentially as costs drop and the actual vehicles can be produced. Autonomous piloting systems and a subscription or pay-per-use model versus personal ownership will likely increase the rate of adoption as usage can be optimized for maximum value rather than having vehicles sitting idle in parking lots or garages all day. > > Stranger Thanks for the link. I didn’t know there were any hydrogen cars actually in production and being sold. It would certainly limit utility though as you say since there are very few hydrogen fuel stations out there. The one in London seemed to be the only one in the area from the video. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-the-fuel-of-the-future-youtube-video/813046/27 "2018-04-24T22:23:47Z")
Here’s [an interesting article by David Roberts of Vox](https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/2/16/16926950/hydrogen-fuel-technology-economy-hytech-storage) about the potential for hydrogen-fueled vehicles. The intro: > [@](#): > > Hydrogen — the H of H2O fame — turns out to be something of an all-purpose element, a Swiss Army knife for energy. It can be produced without greenhouse gases. It is highly flammable, so it can be used as a combustion fuel. It can be fed into a fuel cell to produce electricity directly, without combustion, through an electrochemical process. > > It can be stored and distributed as a gas or a liquid. It can be combined with CO2 (and/or nitrogen and other gases) to create other useful fuels like methane or ammonia. It can be used as a chemical input in a range of industrial processes, helping to make fertilizers, plastics, or pharmaceuticals. > > It is quite handy. > > And it is the most abundant chemical element in the universe, so you’d think we’d have all we need. Sadly, it’s not that easy. > > It is expensive, in both money and energy, to pry hydrogen loose from other elements, store it, and convert it back to useful energy. The value we get out of it has never quite justified what we invest in producing it. It is one of those technologies that seems perpetually on the verge of a breakthrough, but never quite there. The story is about a guy who thinks he’s licked all three of these problems. Sounds like we’ll have a pretty good idea whether he’s right sometime this year. He’s not the first person who’s tried, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-the-fuel-of-the-future-youtube-video/813046/28 "2018-04-24T23:37:02Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Currently they don’t take very long to charge. The Chevy Bolt can go 90 miles from a 1/2 hour charge, and that’s after using up the 238 miles of range from the overnight charging. All of my ice cars can go 250 miles on a 2 minute fuel up. they can do this continuously. As to the idea of a hydrogen fuel cell alternative, that’s a function of cost versus benefit. Currently (pun alert) there is a fuel cost savings that offsets the extra cost of EV’s. There’s also a performance gain particularly in high performance EV’s. There is also a loss of benefit with time constraints of recharging. If the cost of hydrogen cells is competitive with the mix of attributes consumers want then we have an alternative to EV’s. That has to include recharge stations that people have reasonable access to. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-the-fuel-of-the-future-youtube-video/813046/29 "2018-04-24T23:45:53Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Ok. I looked up the Bolt. It’s optimal range seems to be 238 miles under good conditions. However, if it’s cold (or hot) and you use things like the heater or AC and other electronics that drops…according to [this](https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115039_chevy-bolt-ev-electric-car-range-and-performance-in-winter-one-owners-log) users log, it dropped to around 150 miles. > > I also looked up the average time to recharge for the Bolt and it seems to be several hours, not half an hour for 80%. but again, that’s approaching it like you would a gas car. i.e. “I drive until my fuel tank/battery is almost empty, then stop somewhere for the purpose of refilling/recharging it.” the point is that when your EV has 200+ miles of range per charge, if you plug in _at home_ every night you rarely if ever have to worry about multi-hour recharges. try filling up your gas tank at home. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-the-fuel-of-the-future-youtube-video/813046/30 "2018-04-24T23:48:29Z")
One thought I’ve had about producing energy is to have a solar powered electrolysis station in your garage. It just spends the day making hydrogen and you fill up when you get home. No need for transportation beyond water pipes. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-the-fuel-of-the-future-youtube-video/813046/31 "2018-04-24T23:59:32Z")
Plus, how many households in the US already have two cars anyway? And among those, how many have one parent with a short (defined as “within range of a charge, plus a safety factor”) commute? Instead of using two gasoline cars, that family could have one gasoline car and one electric. When it comes time to drive two states over to visit Grandma, you take the gasoline car, but meanwhile (i.e., for the majority of the time), you’re using half the gas. Or less, if that “gasoline car” is a plug-in hybrid, and goes _most_ of the way on the daily commute on battery power, and only needs to burn gas for the last 20%. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydrogen-the-fuel-of-the-future-youtube-video/813046.md?page=1)