# Hydroxychloroquine study "does not meet the Society's expected standard." **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [April 9, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443 "2020-04-09T16:55:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/21 "2020-04-17T17:15:58Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > [Pharmacologic Treatments for Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2764727?utm_campaign=articlePDF%26utm_medium%3darticlePDFlink%26utm_source%3darticlePDF%26utm_content%3djama.2020.6019) TLDR: “No proven effective therapies for this virus currently exist.” It is incredibly difficult to draw conclusions from non-control studies. 50 patients are in a desperate situation due to Covid-19 and are given a trial medication. 20 die. Did they save 5? 10? Kill 5? Not make any difference at all? It should not take years to conduct these experiments. There are plenty of test subjects, and patient outcomes should be known after 2-4 weeks. Many of the remaining considerations are ethical ones. You can’t raid the pharmacy and start giving people random drugs to see what happens. This is not a regular episode that will wrap up in the third act. It is a cliffhanger, and you’re going to have to wait all summer to get some answers. It’s even likely the writers will be jerks and stretch out the tension through all of the next season. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/22 "2020-04-17T17:29:33Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > It should not take years to conduct these experiments. There are plenty of test subjects, and patient outcomes should be known after 2-4 weeks. It’s only speculative but Gilead, the company who makes Remdesivir, decided that they needed to go into mass manufacturing mode and start cranking out millions of pills - while, purportedly, still waiting for the results of their studies to come out in May. > **[Gilead turbocharges production of COVID-19 hopeful remdesivir](https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/gilead-to-donate-1-5m-doses-covid-19-hopeful-remdesivir-as-manufacturing-skyrockets)** > > Gilead Sciences' remdesivir has courted high hopes as a potential treatment for COVID-19—so high, in fact, that the company previously had to shut down emergency access to the drug. | Gilead Sciences' remdesivir has courted high hopes as a potential... Again, this is simply speculation, but it seems like a lot of money to spend if you don’t have some decent expectation that it was of value. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/23 "2020-04-17T17:33:30Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > What expertise do you bring to the table that your opinion should weigh any merit whatsoever? > > Stranger the expertise to let doctors do their job which in this case is trench warfare done in real time. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/24 "2020-04-17T17:37:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the expertise to let doctors do their job which in this case is trench warfare done in real time. In real time, you determine that your medicine cures people 10% of the time. In retrospect, you determine that your medicine kills people 20% of the time. Woopsies, teehee. :o I recognize that you’re in a hurry but, you should be aware that nearly every medicine is also a poison. It’s not just asking, “Can I kill this disease?” It’s, “Can I not murder this person, while killing this disease?” That’s a harder problem to solve and very important. It’s moronic to cure a disease that probably won’t kill the person, with something that will kill them. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/25 "2020-04-17T18:07:23Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It’s only speculative but Gilead, the company who makes Remdesivir, decided that they needed to go into mass manufacturing mode and start cranking out millions of pills - while, purportedly, still waiting for the results of their studies to come out in May. > > [https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/gilead-to-donate-1-5m-doses-covid-19-hopeful-remdesivir-as-manufacturing-skyrockets](https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/gilead-to-donate-1-5m-doses-covid-19-hopeful-remdesivir-as-manufacturing-skyrockets) > > Again, this is simply speculation, but it seems like a lot of money to spend if you don’t have some decent expectation that it was of value. There’s a good CNN article on remdesivir [here](https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/16/health/coronavirus-remdesivir-trial/index.html). I mean “good” in the sense that it seems responsibly written and contains important caveats like “In this case, information from an internal forum for research colleagues concerning work in progress was released without authorization. Drawing any conclusions at this point is premature and scientifically unsound.” It does however say that “Gilead is sponsoring tests of the drug in 2,400 patients with severe Covid-19 symptoms in 152 trial sites around the world. It’s also testing the drug in 1,600 patients with moderate symptoms at 169 hospitals and clinics around the world”. These appear to be observational studies, not formal clinical trials, but may provide useful information by the end of the month. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/26 "2020-04-17T19:32:29Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It’s only speculative but Gilead, the company who makes Remdesivir, decided that they needed to go into mass manufacturing mode and start cranking out millions of pills - while, purportedly, still waiting for the results of their studies to come out in May. > > [https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/gilead-to-donate-1-5m-doses-covid-19-hopeful-remdesivir-as-manufacturing-skyrockets](https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufacturing/gilead-to-donate-1-5m-doses-covid-19-hopeful-remdesivir-as-manufacturing-skyrockets) > > Again, this is simply speculation, but it seems like a lot of money to spend if you don’t have some decent expectation that it was of value. This type of behavior is exactly the things pharmaceutical companies need to be doing to speed up availability of therapeutics and vaccines. The only gamble cranking up manufacturing like this are opportunity costs and money. Maybe there is something else they could be making that will turn out to be better than Remdesivir, but at this point Remdesivir is their best shot. If the clinical trials come back and show it is effective, they will have lots of drugs available for use immediately. If the trials come back and say it is NOT effective, oh well, they wasted some time and money. Skipping trials is not the way to speed up treatment, but starting production before trials are done is a way to speed up treatment. If the downside is only losing some money, then go for it. If they’re having to guess what drug looks the most promising ahead of time, then that will be very difficult, and it might pay off better to wait for more results before ramping up production of the wrong one. Business and investing involve risks. In this case they are taking a risk, where the payoff may be gigantic, both the financial and humanitarian aspects. Like any risk, it may not work out. Them’s the breaks. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/27 "2020-04-17T19:52:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the expertise to let doctors do their job which in this case is trench warfare done in real time. This is not “trench warfare”, and I’ll reiterate that the harms of using even just a demonstrably non-efficacious treatment (regardless of what a certain political figure is promoting) outweighs the need to just “do something”. Doctors in the field do not have the time, opportunity, or objective detachment to look at a treatment protocol and judge its efficacy, which is the reason for performing studies. In this case, the Marseilles IHU group hydroxychloroquine/azithromycin combination study, which was originally promoted as being a validation of the claims of efficacy for that drug combination, are found to be highly suspect in several measures while other studies are not able to reproduce the supposed benefits. Now, are you going to bring anything substantive to this discussion or are you just going to wave your hands and yell, “Trench warfare!” every time someone presents evidence that your favored concoction does not do what you would like to believe it does? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/28 "2020-04-18T04:31:23Z")
Articles I have read about this treatment say it is most effective as an early treatment. I have used this. I had to work in Uganda for a while at age 40, and used the drug. I had no reactions at all. Our health care system is about to start a large scale test, with rigorous standards. Testing it at the early stages. The drug has a variety of proven uses. A very small amount of negative effects. It could be a very good stopgap solution. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/29 "2020-04-18T19:37:38Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > This is not “trench warfare”, and I’ll reiterate that the harms of using even just a demonstrably non-efficacious treatment (regardless of what a certain political figure is promoting) outweighs the need to just “do something”. it is absolutely trench warfare. there is not time for an extended study. This is a known drug that’s been around for a long time and the side affects of it are well known. It’s being given in a hospital setting where the patients can be closely monitored. > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Now, are you going to bring anything substantive to this discussion or are you just going to wave your hands an yell, “Trench warfare!” every time someone presents evidence that your favored concoction does not do what you would like to believe it does? It’s not my favored concoction. I have no favored concoction. I could care less which drug turns out to be the best. This is what doctor’s chose as one of the combinations of drugs to use. They didn’t take their marching orders from admiral orange or an internet quarterback chemist. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/30 "2020-04-18T21:53:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > it is absolutely trench warfare. there is not time for an extended study. This is a known drug that’s been around for a long time and the side affects of it are well known. It’s being given in a hospital setting where the patients can be closely monitored. No time for study! Break out the essential oils and jade eggs! Do something! Giving patients a drug that _might_ work is possibly ethical in some circumstances, but it doesn’t tell us if the therapy is doing anything desirable. Again, if 50 patients are given a drug, and 20 die, how many were saved by the treatment, how many were killed by the treatment, did it make any difference at all? OK, lets compare that 50 to a similar set of patients with similar conditions and similar pre-treatment prognosis. Oops, now we’ve done a study. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/31 "2020-04-18T22:30:07Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > No time for study! Break out the essential oils and jade eggs! Do something! Essential oils and jade eggs? Why would post something this inane? Do you think the doctors just randomly chose a drug to try? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/32 "2020-04-18T22:40:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not my favored concoction. I have no favored concoction. I could care less which drug turns out to be the best. This is what doctor’s chose as one of the combinations of drugs to use. They didn’t take their marching orders from admiral orange or an internet quarterback chemist. Yeah, but you hadn’t heard of it until agent orange mentioned it on TV. And suddenly you were all in. Some doctors tried it to varying success and not insignificant risk. They also tried other treatments. None of which you have any fucking clue about. All you have a clue about is the one thing you heard agent orange advertise on TV. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/33 "2020-04-18T22:41:06Z")
It’s the helicopter dumping water incident all over again. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/34 "2020-04-18T23:00:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Essential oils and jade eggs? Why would post something this inane? Do you think the doctors just randomly chose a drug to try? Based on the reports that tells us how inadequate the early “significant” optimist studies were, the evidence points at doctors that might as well had done that. > **[Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin versus COVID-19: Grift, conspiracy...](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/hydroxychloroquine-and-azithromycin-versus-covid-19/)** > > On Friday, Prof. Didier Raoult posted another study of azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine used against COVID-19. It is a single arm observational study of patients with mostly mild (or even asymptoma > [@](#): > > Last week, I wrote about an experimental treatment for COVID-19 that repurposes old drugs. One version of the treatment uses chloroquine (which is sold under the trade name Aralen and others), an anti-malaria drug that’s also used to treat autoimmune diseases. Another version, the one that at the time was getting the most press, claimed that the combination of hydroxychloroquine (trade name Plaquenil, and it’s a drug which is very similar to chloroquine) and the antibiotic azithromycin (often prescribed in the famous “Z-Pak”) could completely render SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, undetectable in patients. As I described, it was a horrible, horrible study about which I later found out things that make me suspect that its awfulness could have been due to more than mere incompetence and instead might have been scientific fraud. Meanwhile, the only existing randomized trial of chloroquine in COVID-19 was negative. As I said at the time, that doesn’t mean that the drug doesn’t work, but it does strongly suggest that its effects are probably not dramatic, although it is also possible that the dose used was too low. > [@](#): > > There is zero evidence that withholding hydroxychloroquine from mild cases will result in an extra million deaths. Dr. Zelenko’s actions and words are irresponsible and unethical. > > It’s even worse, though. It’s not just hucksters like Dr. Oz and irresponsible doctors like Dr. Zelenko. Now, a shadowy conservative business group founded by a big time political donor to the Republican Party is entering the fray: > > > [@](#): > > > > A conservative business group founded by a prolific Republican political donor is pressuring the White House to greenlight an unproven COVID-19 treatment, saying in an online petition that the country has plants in the U.S. ready to produce a drug but can’t because of “red tape, regulation, and a dysfunctional healthcare supply chain.” > > > > ``` > > In recent days, Home Depot co-founder Bernard Marcus’ Job Creators Network has placed Facebook ads and texted supporters to sign a petition urging President Donald Trump to “CUT RED TAPE” and make an anti-malarial drug called hydroxychloroquine available for treating those sickened with the virus, one such message obtained by ProPublica reads. > > > > ``` > > Mark my words, the same people who foisted the deceptive “right-to-try” law on us in order to weaken the FDA will take full advantage of the COVID-19 pandemic to further weaken the FDA in the name of “speeding up cures” and “cutting red tape.” > > Finally, are stem cell quacks getting in on the action? I think you know the answer to that question: > I fear that, when all is said and done, the COVID-19 pandemic will be the single greatest opportunity for grifters and snake oil salesmen I’ve seen in my lifetime. Until a vaccine and/or effective treatment is developed, the grift will continue. > > In the meantime, we wait the results of clinical trials and for science to do what it always does, as I find myself living in one of the hottest COVID-19 hotspots in the US. > **[“Miracle cure” testimonials aside, azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine...](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/miracle-cure-testimonials-aside-azithromycin-and-hydroxychloroquine-probably-do-not-work-against-covid-19/)** > > Here we go again. Didier Raoult has published another uninformative study looking at the use of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin to treat COVID-19. Unfortunately, recent data examining these drugs ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/35 "2020-04-18T23:04:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Do you think the doctors just randomly chose a drug to try? Not randomly, no. But also not especially scientifically either. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/36 "2020-04-18T23:28:20Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > It’s the helicopter dumping water incident all over again. Don’t be silly . . . helicopters dumping hand sanitizer is clearly what we need! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2020, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/37 "2020-04-19T00:31:25Z")
nm. Found what I asked for. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2020, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/38 "2020-04-19T00:42:00Z")
[From a _Times of India_ columnist](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/Swaminomics/its-time-for-india-to-play-hardball-with-trump/): > [@](#): > > Medical experts have repeatedly said there is no evidence that this drug will combat Covid-19. Clinical trials will take time to deliver a verdict. Yet Trump is so convinced that the drug works that he has twisted India’s arm to supply to the US. . . . . > > consider the possibility — backed by almost all medical experts — that the drug will not work. In that case neither American nor Indian Covid-19 victims will be affected. But millions of Indians also suffer from malaria, lupus arthritis and auto-immune diseases, all of which require this drug. To deprive millions of Indian sufferers to improve your re-election chances is a moral outrage. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2020, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/39 "2020-04-19T00:47:04Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train;22255049 And treating patients with an ineffective and potentially harmful medication not only means that they are able to be treated with a more effective interventions (such as remdesivir which is tentatively showing promising results) Stranger[/QUOTE] What brand name does Gilead use for remdesivir? I can’t Google it up. I just want to see if I’m familiar with it as a brand name drug. > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > This is not “trench warfare”, and I’ll reiterate that the harms of using even just a demonstrably non-efficacious treatment (regardless of what a certain political figure is promoting) outweighs the need to just “do something”. Doctors in the field do not have the time, opportunity, or objective detachment to look at a treatment protocol and judge its efficacy, which is the reason for performing studies. In this case, the Marseilles IHU group hydroxychloroquine/azithromycin combination study, which was originally promoted as being a validation of the claims of efficacy for that drug combination, are found to be highly suspect in several measures while other studies are not able to reproduce the supposed benefits. > > Now, are you going to bring anything substantive to this discussion or are you just going to wave your hands and yell, “Trench warfare!” every time someone presents evidence that your favored concoction does not do what you would like to believe it does? > > Stranger “Just doing something” is what is getting all this improper mask use going on. I saw a guy standing around waiting for a bus, or something, start coughing, hock up a loogie, pull down his mask, spit; wipe his mouth with his hand, then use that hand to pull the mask back up. I see people all the time smoking in their cars with masks around their necks, or on the seat next to them, then they pull up, park, and put on the mask with the hands they’ve been smoking with. And tons of people driving around with masks around their necks in their cars, pulling them on with bare hands as soon as the prepare to go into a store, No gloves, no hand sanitizer. Grump, Grump, Grump. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2020, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443/40 "2020-04-19T00:50:32Z")
One might suspect that those pushing to “cut red tape” and “greenlight miracle drugs” are anti-Vaxers hoping for the worst. BTW are any other nations crying for vast quantities of drugs that won’t work? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hydroxychloroquine-study-does-not-meet-the-societys-expected-standard/851443.md?page=3)